"Irmin" and Hermes

Piotr wrote:
<<The vowels of <-duri> and Gk. <-doroi> point unambiguously to PGmc. *dura-
(pl. *duro:z). A really early loan (before the post-PGmc. lowering of *u in
some dialects/environments) would have ended up with *-aro:z (Lat. *-ari, Gk.
*-aroi).>>

I appreciate your patience with me here. I'm having trouble understanding.

Doesn't Latin <-duri> and Greek <-dori> also point 'unambiguously' to Latin
and Greek forms? I mean this word is a "loan", even if it is a word from a
native Germanic language. If nothing more, we should acknowledge the final
suffixes, which are not Germanic.

I think at this point one important question is: if we take <-duri> as being
a literal transcription of the last part of "Hermunduri", then shouldn't we
take the first part literally too.

If that's the case, then we should assume that what some Roman was hearing
was <herm-> not <erm->. It seems that the Romans were quite capable of
distinguishing <er> from <her>. The distinction in transcripted sounds was
also of some consequence. The -h- in placed in Hermunduri does not appear to
be casual. Hermes had an important meaning.

Now, it appear that Strabo writing in Greek got the name Hermunduri from the
Latin. This seems clear from the context. So my earlier suggestion that
Greek attested name is older, appears to be wrong. It looks like Strabo
simply transcribed <Hermunduri> to <Hermondoroi> and simply and expectedly
substituted -o- for -u-.

However to all of these writers -- Dio, Tacitus, Strabo -- the appearance of
<Herm-> in the name must have been significant. If some other collection of
letters would have represented the difference in meaning or sound, it seems
likely they would have used them. And I think Tacitus goes out of his way to
explain the name Hermes appearing within the name given to a German tribe.

Grimm says something like "Did {Tacitus] in his Hermin and Herminones think
of Herakles and Hercules, whose name bore plainly on its face the root, Hra,
Hera? was that why he retained the aspirate in Herminones and Hermunduri, and
not in Arminius?" Grimm seems to brush aside the obvious connection to Hermes
by saying that the Roman Mercury had been identified by Tacitus with "Ziu."
He did not at all consider the obvious connection between the German names
and the functional <hermes> that marked boundaries. It is odd that the
Marcomanni could be identified with boundary marches, but the Hermunduri in
the ame region would not be identified with the markers of those boundaries.

Now one can assume that the <herm-> word was completely native German and the
similarity in sound that the Roman writings portray is completely
coincidental. But there are some indications it was not. The best example
is the "irmansu:l", which Widukind identified as coming from a "hermis" -- a
column (or columns) topped by a god. This was an important usage of the
Hermes word and it applied no matter what god was portrayed. (Some Roman
stelae or pillars bore double names like Hermathene. A Roman temple to
Hercules was called a Hermaion, probably because of its pillars.)

The "immensus" gloss mentioned previously and placed on the German word has a
clear connection to boundaries that goes back to the first time we ever meet
Hermes the god. (In the Iliad, the old Trojan Priam goes unarmed to Achilles
to get Hector's body back. Hermes leads him into the camp right past the
unfriendly guards and even opens a gate it takes three men to open.)
Tacitus' implicit explanation of <hermunduri> is perhaps the one that best
explains <immensus> as its synonym <interminus>, that they had free reigns to
travel and trade wherever they wished on either side of the boundary
"hermon." It would appear both more plausible and historical than any
Germanically originated meaning I've heard so far.

Of course, having lived in Pennsylvania, I'm a little familiar with mixed
language compounds and it might be that "Hermunduri" represented such a
hybrid. The concept of the hermes would have come to these Germanic speakers
before the Romans recorded it. Perhaps the -und in Hermund- might reflect a
Germanic denominative suffix that indicated this group was from the place
where boundary markers were found. If that suffix was extant in that form
by Strabo's time, then perhaps that's an explanation.

But the point would be that either Hermes was a Germanic word that went to
Greece or more likely from the development of meaning it was a Greek word
that was borrowed into Germanic, explaining Hermunduri and what Tacitus wrote
about them.

Piotr also writes:
<<...-o-do:ros> names (Athenodorus, Apollodorus, Theodore, etc.) mean "a gift
of ..." (from <do:ron> 'gift'). Hermodorus means "given by Hermes". <do:ro->
is derived from the verb "give"; no connection with gates.>>

Actually theodo:re:tos , theodotos, theothen are the traditional way to say
gift of the gods. L-S says that theosdoros was a later "fiction." Some
19th Century scholar thought that Hermodo:ros was misread too, citing the
fact that a gift of Hermes was a very particular thing and called <hermaion>
"a gift of Hermes, i.e. unexpected piece of luck, godsend, wind-fall,
treasure-trove" In any case, the similarity between the names could not
have escaped Roman writers, who may have noted the difference between
<-doros> and <-do:ros> but usually did not show it in translating to <-dorus>.

Piotr wrote:
<<Quite seriously, it occurred to me that *ermun-dura- interpreted as 'having
immense/wide/multiple gates' would have been a perfect kenning for the
Germanic Hall of the Dead (if I saw anything like *eormendor in Old English
that would be my first association) -- or else for anything having a large
entry, or accessible from all directions. Cf. also Old English fi:feldor
'(sea)monster-door' = the River Eider.>>

There apparently were many gates of Hermes. In Thassos, it's identified by a
pillar of Hermes and the presumption is that that is the gate you'd enter if
under the aegis of Hermes (e.g., a messenger or foreign trader). There's a
"hermetic" gates of Hermes that also means something or other.

Let me instead suggest for *ermun-dura-, having gates open for one. Like the
modern organization, "Doctors without Borders."

Steve