[tied] Re: Thuringen

From: tgpedersen
Message: 13702
Date: 2002-05-12

--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tgpedersen
> To: cybalist@...
> Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 12:01 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Thuringen
>
>
Torsten:
> Are there any other examples of that (you might claim it happened
in <teutsch>, of course, which BTW is a good candidate for <c^udi>).
>
Piotr:
> The Slavic word was borrowed at a time when the Germanic form was
still *þiud- (Slavic speakers substituted *tjud-, since their
language had no /þ/). The voicelessness of the initial consonant of
<deutsch>, as in Alemannic (Swiss) <tüütsch> is a dialectal
phenomenon characteristic of southern HG (cf. Bavarian <tach> instead
of <dach> from *þaka-). I do not know how <tausend> (for expected and
dialectally widespread <dausend>, cf. OHG thu:sunt/du:sent) is
explained by German experts; perhaps an interdialectal loan in MHG.
The story of <thüringen> is different; Thuringia was called Düringen
throughout the Middle Ages and well into the modern times, the modern
official spelling <th> is "learned" (it refers to the earliest
history of the country and to its Latin name) and the modern
pronunciation is simply consistent with the spelling.

Torsten:
And you still haven't explained how the Medieval Latin <Thuringia>
came about.
>
> ----------
>
>
Torsten:
> > /D/ (edh) develops into /d/ in German.
>
Piotr:
> Not "old" (pre-OHG) /ð/ (= PGmc *d), which you apparently had in
mind, since you compared it to "suffixal" /ð/ (from Verner's Law,
also represented in the list below). It underwent occlusion (> /d/)
and regular devoicing (> /t/) already in OHG, also when geminated (-
dd- > -tt-).
>
> *daga- > tag/tac
> *duxte:r > tohter
> *dragan- > tragan
> *fade:r > fater/vater
> *wurda- > wort
> *rauda- > ro:t
> *kalda- > chalt
> *guda- > got
> *bidjan- (> *-dd-) > bitten
> *þridjo:n- > thritto/dritto
> *badja- > bett

Torsten:
*broðer > *bruder > **bruter ??
That can't be right.
PGmc. must have had *faþer vs *broðer (Verner). Any solution that
leads to High German <vater> and <bruder> must avoid either of the
two phonemes "bumping into" each other. Eg. (in inlaut) -þ-:-ð- -> -t-
:-d-. As for anlaut, since this not a High German specialty, but all-
German (and Dutch) I imagine something like þ- -> ð- (cf s- -> z-, f-
-> v-) -> d-. Thus her also ð -> d.
>
> Some dialects preserve /d/ (dag, dochter, etc.),

Torsten:
Correct. Low German and Dutch.

Piotr:
but of course standard German doesn't. *-nd- was also changed to
OHG -nt- (blint, bintan, stantan, lant), but -nd- was restored in MHG
(I don't know much about the details; perhaps the devoicing was
variable or incomplete after a nasal).

Torsten:
Or it was a regularization of the -nt:-nd- paradigm alternation that
arose in strong verbs; Danish still has finde:fandt:fundet (cf
Swedish finna:fann:funnit). And OHG has (regularly) ich pim, du pist.
German to day is a compromise (or intermediate dialect)

Torsten