Re: IRMIN

--- In cybalist@..., "caraculiambro" <gpiotr@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
>
> > P:
> > Arminius ....
> > I can't propose a good etymology, since I don't know what the
> > Germanic form of the name really was, but fantastical comparison
> > with "aryaman-" or "Armenian" doesn't explain it either. You

cannot

> > base a sound etymology on the similarity of form alone.
> >
> > T:
> > What are the other criteria that you want met?
>
> (1) A decent formal match (rather than your _routine_ recourse to
> folk-etymological distortion as an all-purpose evasion
> stratagem).

I am very sorry. In the future I shall endeavour not to modify my
proposals when you have found an argument against them.


"Aryaman-" and "Arminius" may look similar, but is the

> latter derivable from the former? Which Iranian language (if any)
>is
> the supposed source?

I don't know. It is obviously not Alanian, since it has -r-. And its
about 50 years earlier and 300 km further to the north. So it makes
it different to set up formal rules. Tyragetae -> Toringi ?

>
> (2) A plausible reason for utilising an exotic word as a Germanic
> name. Your personal conviction, no matter how intense, will not
>make
> other people believe that a Germanic chief should have been
> called "Armenian" (if _that_'s your theory) -- there's no precedent
> for anything like that. Is there any ancient gossip to the effect
> that Arminius was somehow connected with Armenia?

Well, there was that remark about the V. people in Snorri (which our
co-moderator has forbidden me to mention, so I won't mention it),
that the A (Iranic speakers) and V. (Armenian?) went to war and made
peace and exchanged hostages, which would account for V. people among
the A. And there was a kingdom of V. close to Armenia at the right
time, and Armenia supposedly has its roots in Urartu, around Lake Van
(oops, I said it).

And why should the Finns call their king <kuningas> and the Slavs
their god <Bog>?

I think the discussion started with observation that <Armen> is an
Armenian name. But I don't know if that might be borrowed from Iranic
(as much was in Armenian at that time).

> (3) The name Arminius can't be _both_ "Armenian" and "Aryaman", so
> which is it in your opinion? Why not the other? Why not something
> else? Before you consider extraordinary etymologies, maybe ordinary
> ones are worth trying first. Is it really impossible to etymologise
> Arminius in Germanic or Celtic terms? I have myself rejected the
> commonly cited equation "Arminius = Hermann" as impossible to

defend

> on formal grounds -- but that is something that _I_ say. Somebody
> with your penchant for "irregular" explanations might come up with
> all sorts of theories about prehistoric Cockneys dropping their
> aitches and manipulating their vowels.

Aha! So I with my penchant for "irregular" explanations should come
up with another (but "irregular"?) explanation for "Arminius", sïnce
ordinary linguists can't or won't? But I'm afraid what I came up with
is the best I can do.

Sometimes I get an idea which I post, and after that I might get an
idea that I think is better, which I also post. Point taken. I shall
try in the future to stick to my first idea, whatever happens.

>
> Piotr

Torsten