Re: [tied] Re: Kurgan Dates and Places

--- x99lynx@... wrote:

> <<GK: Yes he does point out that the Yamna(ya) c.
> in his area of interest is not autochtonous. Be
> aware,
> however, that the Repinska(ya) culture did not
> originate in the "North Sub-Caspian" or, as you
> state
> later with "points east". It spread to the
> Sub-Caspian
> FROM THE WEST,...>>
>
>(Steve) But I can only assume that Turetskyi brought

up

> "North Sub-Caspian" for a
> reason.

******GK(new): Here is something helpful. "North
Sub-Caspian" is a rather unfortunate English
translation of "Severnoie Prikaspiia". Normally "Pri"
means "Near" not "Sub". The latter has other
connotations. But in any event the area in question is
the northwest corner of the Caspian Sea. Spitsina
notes this as the easternmost location of the
Repinska(ya) [let's call it Repin for
short]culture.******

>
>(Steve) Turetskyi did not say that Repinskaya and

Yamnaya

> were of the same culture,
> he said materials from Repinskaya sites in the North
> Sub-Caspian and Yamnaya
> materials should be interpreted as being from the
> same culture.

*****GK(new) Indeed they should. Here is another
helpful point. The Repin culture is a very early phase
of the Yamna culture. All major postSoviet
archaeologists (except the maverick Siniuk) are agreed
on this. The big discussion now is whether the Middle
layers of Mikhailivka are "Repin" or not (All agree
that the Late layer of Mikhajlivka is Yamna). As
Spitsina points out in her article, there are 50 known
settlements of Repin at this stage: they extend from
the "northwest Near-Caspian" to the Volga and Don
steppe regions, and to the Azov Sea north shores.
Prior to Repin the "NearCaspian" was occupied by the
Khvalynsk culture, whose ceramic is NOT a foundation
for Repin. Repin arrived there from the WEST ca.
3500/3400 BC .******

>
> (Steve)The impression he certainly leaves is that

the

> appearance of the earliest
> sparse Yamnaya sites in Samara are connected to the
> North Sub-Caspian. So, on
> its face and without interpretation the report seems
> to be that the
> "non-native" Yamnaya came from that region, i.e.,
> points east. If he meant
> something else, the "North Sub-Caspian" comparison
> is not just superfluous,
> it's misleading.

****GK(new) I hope the previous explanations clarify
this point. I take Turetskij to mean that the Yamna
spread to his region from the northwest Caspian.*****

>
> (Steve)For me, this just reinforces the question of

whether

> any linguistic
> conclusions are justified by any early dating of
> "Yamnaya" sites. The 3500BC
> first date you mention reflect an "early" culture
> that doesn't even show
> evidence of metals. If the wheel, chariots or
> domesticated horse evidence
> are relevant, Turetskyi certainly doesn't mention
> them in this abstract.

*****GK:(new) I don't know whether one can conclude
too much from T's brief abstract. As to metals, note
that Repin in the West (where it originated) was
familiar with copper. Bracelets, spearheads, and other
objects made of copper were found in the Donetz
excavations. Their absence further east tells one more
(if that) about the east than about Repin (and early
Yamna) in general.*****

>
> Here's the quote:
> "Material of Repinskaya culture from sites of North
> Sub-Caspian and funeral
> complexes of Yamnaya culture of north-steppe Samara
> Trans-Volga can be with
> great degree of confidence interpreted AS OF THE
> SAME CULTURE. (my caps)
>
> "This resemblance is revealed by typological
> proximity of ceramics,
> settlement and funeral sites. It is the clearest
> indicator of belonging to
> the early stage of Yamnaya culture.
>
> ""There are no metal tools in numerous interments of
> this period. Scanty
> number of early Yamnaya burials means that Yamnaya
> tribes in the Middle-Volga
> region are not native. ... Predominant part of
> Yamnaya funerals of Samara
> Trans-Volga belongs to the late stage."
>
> Steve
>

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