Re: [tied] Ur - Urina - Urbe - Urbar etc...

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 13319
Date: 2002-04-18

The city of Ur was actually located west of the lower Euphrates, not between the rivers, and wasn't any more "watery" than other cities of that region. It was closer to the sea than it is now, as the coastline has advanced locally since 3000 BC, but it wasn't actually coastal either. I don't know if its name has a convincing etymology, but the chances of its having anything to do with the other words you mention are practically nil.
 
Basque ur 'water' (in compounds usually <u->) is a genuinely ancient word, but its relation to anything outside Basque can only be a matter of speculation at present.
 
Lat. u:ri:na is possibly derived from PIE *weh1-r- 'moisture, water' (> *we:r-, *wo:r-, *u:r- in the daughter languages). The word <urbs> is unrelated to it; the exact etymology is still debated, but most experts agree that it represents one of the IE words for 'hill-fort'.
 
German ur- 'proto-' is basically the same word as <aus> or English <out>; it comes from PIE *ud ~ *u:d 'out of', which had an extended variant: *ud-s > *us- > PGmc. uz- > German ur-. I think the final *-d is ultimately identical with the PIE ablative ending; anyway, the word is an IE adverb/preposition and has nothing to do with water. I think <urbar> meant simply 'cleared out', hence '(newly established) landed property', and that the word contains <ur-> plus <bar> 'bare' = 'initially bare'. I haven't checked it up, though, so I can't swear that this etymology is correct. Maybe someone on the list knows a better one. By the way, the German _suffix_ <-bar> means approximately '-ful' (e.g. <fruchtbar> 'fruitful'), not '-less'!
 
I don't know the Malagasy word for 'rain', but any _visible_ similarity to European words for 'water' or 'rain' can only be fortuitous. The Javanese word for 'rain' is <udan>, which looks exactly like the Hittite locative 'in the water'. It might appear to be a perfect "match"; however, even in languages rather closely related to Javanese the word looks slightly different (e.g. Malay hujan). It derives from the Proto-Austronesian word for 'rain', *quzaN (where *z = Eng. "j", and *N is probably something closer to "l" than to "n") and has nothing to do with the IE 'water' word.
 
Cheers,
 
Piotr
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: conguitos_98
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 2:55 PM
Subject: [tied] Ur - Urina - Urbe - Urbar etc...

Hello, it's my first post on this board, although I'm "monitoring" it for years. I'm not a linguist just an aficionado and perhaps some of my thoughts will bother or make you laugh, so, please be nice to me and forgive my sins.

Ok, what makes me post is the word/stem UR. You surely know words like summerian "UR"
(city, the city of UR was between the Tigris and Euphrates I think), latin URINA" (water-urine), basque "UR" (water - water related), IE *UR (to weaten?), german "URBAR" (adjective describing a piece of land that is suitable for agriculture, "UR-"
water?, "BAR" without?) and again latin "URBE" (city, Rome was founded in a swamp area). (I've also read that "UR" in Madagascar means rain, but I can't verify this. There is also the german particle "UR-" meaning "very old", but I think that this has nothing to do with the "water" UR. Old as water?) Well, is there any possibility that these words are related to each other? Or am I fantasizing?

PS: excuse my poor english.

Greets Jorge