[tied] Re: This Whole Indian Horse Thing [obiter]

--- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
> --- vishalsagarwal <vishalagarwal@...> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...>
> > wrote:
> > > *****GK: Let's just deal with this one issue
> > before
> > > moving on to other points you have made. If "pura"
> > > does not mean "fort" or "citadel", what does it
> > mean?
> > > And can that something else also be "stormed"
> > > "destroyed" etc.. with the "assistance of...
> > horses
> > > and chariots"?******
> >
> > VA: I think that before we tackle this question,
> > there are more
> > seminal questions to be answered.
> > 1. What is the nature of the Rigvedic chariot?
> //etc.. up to> 5. What kind of terrain is suited for
> chariot
> > warfare?
>
> *****GK: I confess to not being very familiar with
> North Indian landscape. The early RV hymns celebrate
> (I would assume anthropomorphically) the exploits of
> God Indra (pretty famous bloke) who rides a chariot
> drawn by two bay horses, "war-steeds", and is
> described as "the crusher of forts" ("puras"?). Now if
> this sort of warfare was inappropriate for what you
> take to be the Sarasvati region, and became "purely
> symbolic" in the territorial context of NI, then one
> might be entitled to suggest that it represents
> reminiscences from some earlier epoch of Indo-Aryan
> history, some prior "Seven Rivers" (in central Asia,
> where chariot warfare is abundantly testified to),
> which has been "autochtonized" in a new setting. Much
> as the Old Kyivan Foundation Legend represents a
> restatement of Late Hun history in a more northerly
> area. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but it might be
> worth considering,and perhaps already was.******
> >
> >(VA) In tackling these questions, we would do well to
> > leave out romantic
> > ideas (e.g. of Stuart Piggott in some of his earlier
> > books) that the
> > Vedic Aryans used the chariots to control their
> > herds!
> >
> > If you wish to understand what the Indologists of a
> > particular school
> > think about Vedic 'pura', you really need to read
> > Rau's monograph.
>
> *****GK: Fine. But is it really that difficult to
> answer a very simple question? If "pura" doesn't mean
> "fort", "castle", "town with a ditch around it" or
> something similar, what does it mean? Reluctance to
> deal with this doesn't advance your case very
> far...****
> >
> > (VA)From an IVC archaeology perspective, note that
> there
> > is evidence of
> > burning down of settlements at the commencement of
> > MATURE Harappan
> > culture, i.e., around 2500 BCE. Further, when the
> > Harappan culture
> > extended into Saurashtra around 2300 BCE, the
> > pre-existing
> > settlements show some evidence of violent
> > destruction.
> >
> > Such features are practically absent when the IA
> > speaking people
> > supposedly entered the IVC area....
> > description? Surely, the IA speakers would not storm
> > abandoned citadels.

I have read a theory that the IVC was wiped out by a Tunguska-type
asteroid impact.

It could be that the IVC collapsed for the same reason as Mesopotamia
sometimes went into politically weak phases, namely excess population
making agriculture get too intensive trying to feed them all, leading
to irrigated soil becoming salinated.

The Aryans invading might have found some sort of native population
trying to subsist along the rivers, but not the full IVC. Rigveda
book 2 hymn 12 verse 11 says that Indra needed 40 years to track down
and kill a drought-dragon-demon hiding in mountains (and would likely
have the sympathy of British troops who had to search for such
outlaws as the Fakir of Ipi in the same sort of area, or of UK RM
marines in Afghanistan now). That sounds like that the area had got
into a prolonged drought, and Indra's dart that killed Vrtra
represents thunderstorm lightning when the rains started coming again
at last.