Re: [tied] Re: This Whole Indian Horse Thing [obiter]

--- vishalsagarwal <vishalagarwal@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., george knysh <gknysh@...>
> wrote:
> > *****GK: Let's just deal with this one issue
> before
> > moving on to other points you have made. If "pura"
> > does not mean "fort" or "citadel", what does it
> mean?
> > And can that something else also be "stormed"
> > "destroyed" etc.. with the "assistance of...
> horses
> > and chariots"?******
>
> VA: I think that before we tackle this question,
> there are more
> seminal questions to be answered.
> 1. What is the nature of the Rigvedic chariot?

//etc.. up to> 5. What kind of terrain is suited for
chariot

> warfare?

*****GK: I confess to not being very familiar with
North Indian landscape. The early RV hymns celebrate
(I would assume anthropomorphically) the exploits of
God Indra (pretty famous bloke) who rides a chariot
drawn by two bay horses, "war-steeds", and is
described as "the crusher of forts" ("puras"?). Now if
this sort of warfare was inappropriate for what you
take to be the Sarasvati region, and became "purely
symbolic" in the territorial context of NI, then one
might be entitled to suggest that it represents
reminiscences from some earlier epoch of Indo-Aryan
history, some prior "Seven Rivers" (in central Asia,
where chariot warfare is abundantly testified to),
which has been "autochtonized" in a new setting. Much
as the Old Kyivan Foundation Legend represents a
restatement of Late Hun history in a more northerly
area. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but it might be
worth considering,and perhaps already was.******

>
>(VA) In tackling these questions, we would do well to
> leave out romantic
> ideas (e.g. of Stuart Piggott in some of his earlier
> books) that the
> Vedic Aryans used the chariots to control their
> herds!
>
> If you wish to understand what the Indologists of a
> particular school
> think about Vedic 'pura', you really need to read
> Rau's monograph.

*****GK: Fine. But is it really that difficult to
answer a very simple question? If "pura" doesn't mean
"fort", "castle", "town with a ditch around it" or
something similar, what does it mean? Reluctance to
deal with this doesn't advance your case very
far...****

>
> (VA)From an IVC archaeology perspective, note that

there

> is evidence of
> burning down of settlements at the commencement of
> MATURE Harappan
> culture, i.e., around 2500 BCE. Further, when the
> Harappan culture
> extended into Saurashtra around 2300 BCE, the
> pre-existing
> settlements show some evidence of violent
> destruction.
>
> Such features are practically absent when the IA
> speaking people
> supposedly entered the IVC area.
>
> So we really need to wonder - even if the Puras of
> RV are forts and
> citadels (and these passages reflect some true
> historical
> background), which particular period in N
> India-Pakistan fits this
> description? Surely, the IA speakers would not storm
> abandoned
> citadels.

*****GK: If the events of 2500/2300 BC cannot be
attributed to them (and I gather that no one is
willing to do so) then the "autochtonization" scenario
mentioned above might garner some further
plausibility. The Indo-Aryans would have infiltrated
NI subsequently to the demise of Harappa, and, mixing
with the locals (as per Piotr's earlier statement),
might have retold "tales of yore" they had brought in
with them.******


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