Re: The "Lesser Goths" of Jordanes

George wrote:
<<The only archaeological evidence in line with the Jordanes account is
Wielbark moving southeastward from the later 1rst c. AD.>>

Although I agree with George that a 1500BC date does not seem very likely for
a "Gothic migration," I think that there is other evidence that might
indicate a southward movement in later times. I'm not saying that any of
these movements validate Jordanes. Some are "material cultures" that show
signs of Jastorf influence. Poienesti-Lukashevka for example often
identified with Bastarnae (for absolutely no good reason I can see) apppears
to be the southward movement of elements associated with what are thought to
be Germanic northern cultures (i.e., through specific artifact categories
like "Feuerbocke" and "Kronenhalsringe", as I understand it.)

I myself of course don't think that archaeological evidence can validate
Jordanes. When crosses and Christian burials, iron poles and certain kind of
wine jugs start appearing in new early English settlements, it does not
signal a migration. The appearance of Japanese cars, sushi plates and audio
equipment in Boston do not signal a Japanese invasion. So, there's really no
reason to be sure that material change means a migration. And that applies to
Wielbark as well as any other evidence of southern movement into the area.

It also should be remembered that before 500BC the "fast" pottery wheel still
had not reached the northern European plain along with a great deal of other
technology that had advanced in the south. If there were any migrations at
the time, should we expect that these people would have retained a lot of
their old way with them - especially the kind that leaves a material remain?

The problem with the 1500BC date is how Jordanes could possibly have
remembered such an event. Currently anthropologists don't believe that
understandable oral history lasts for more than three generations or so. I
think they may be wrong. But 2000 years is a long time for someone to even
recognize what the original words even meant. If I sang an Anglo-Saxon
ballad to a modern English audience, neither I nor they would have the least
idea of what I was talking about.

Steve Long