Re: [tied] Getae and Gothi Together

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 12842
Date: 2002-03-25

A number of previously unknown Wielbark sites have been discovered in northern and eastern Poland in recent years, especially during the past decade or two. The origin of Wielbark is still debated, as is the question of its polyethnicity. The presence of Scandinavian elements can hardly be doubted; it's especially the characteristic stone circles, stellae and geometrical "pavements" of Wielbark cemeteries that point to cultural connections with Gotland and eastern Sweden (Uppland, Östergötland). On the other hand, such constructions are not known from the earliest phases of Wielbark, and the continuity between the local LaTene-ised Oksywie culture (closely related to the "Vandalic" Przeworsk culture) and Wielbark is also evident.
 
My personal opinion is that the East Germanic languages were essentially "continental", and that some immigrant groups of Scandinavian origin (the Amal elite?) mingled with the local populations, transforming them culturally and politically (and deepening the split between the Wielbark and Przeworsk cultures), but not linguistically. The appearance of Scandinavian influence coincides with the expansion of the Wielbark culture into northern Wielkopolska (former Przeworsk territory).
 
The further southeastward spread of Wielbark and its transformation into the Pontic/Danubian Gothic cultures (Chernyakhiv, Sîntana de Muresh) is well documented archaeologically, with the transitional phase represented by the Maslomecz (Masl/ome,cz) group in the densely populated area around the confluence of the Huczwa and Bug rivers on the Polish/Ukrainian border. The Maslomecz settlements (which survived until the arrival of the Huns) were established ca. AD 175.
 
While clearly derived from Wielbark, the group absorbed various other cultural influences (e.g. Sarmatian). You may find it interesting that in the early fourth century the Maslomecz group developed a new style of cremation burial with East Balkan analogies. This innovation is sometimes attributed to "Getic" influence, resulting from the putative northward migration of some Getic tribes (the Carpi?) into the Slovak and Polish Carpathians and the River San valley (where their pottery has been found) in the third century; they partly displaced the Przeworsk culture population or mingled with it, and may have done some mingling with the Goths as well, even so far north.
 
The Gothic kingdom in Ukraine was polyethnic and multilingual, but whatever secondary identifications were made as a result, the identity of the peoples known as the Gutones/Gutthiuda did not disintegrate. Wulfilan Gothic is very clearly a form of (East) Germanic, not a Germano-Scytho-Geto-Hunnish creole. The Goths are not confused with the Getae in the Germanic tradition (in _Widsith_ etc., <Eormanric [we:old] Gotum> [nom.pl. Gotan], never <Getum> or the like).
 
Piotr
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: stevelong02
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 12:35 AM
Subject: [tied] Getae and Gothi Together


(A side note: As far as archeaology proving that the "Goths" who appear on the Danube in the third century AD were the same as "Wielbark" culture: the fact is that most or all of Wielbark is not Scandinavian in origin.  That misimpression is the lingering legacy of Kossina.  In fact, a good part of Wielbark identified by Kossina as northern (e.g., the serpent headed bracelets and such) seem to have originated long before in the area of the Danube. Heather's argument is probably the strongest in favor of a 2d century AD migration.  But it is very circumstantial and pivots on the assumption that key elements of Wielbark did not come from the south.  And that is JUST an assumption.  It certainly does not jive with the spread of iron technology or burial practices to the region.)