Re: I, Hercules [was: A "Germanic" query]

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: anthonyappleyard
> To: cybalist@...
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 3:38 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: I, Hercules [was: A "Germanic" query]
>
>
> --- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > And why these extra assumptions? Because we could then analyse
> > Thoringia (Thuringia) as *þor-ing- etc. If we didn't, who were
> > those people then -ing-'s, followers of, if not of þor?
>
> "th" in Roman Latin was pronounced as [t] + [h], not as the thorn
> letter. In "Thuringi" the Romans heard an aspirated "t". An older
> name for that tribe was "Hermanduri". "Thuringi" means "sons of the
> Duri", plus that the High German sound shift has started including
> [d] to [t].
>
> Note also Roman "Saltus Teutoburgensis", with thorn spelt as "t",

if

> this name means "people fort", and if |as is likely) the modern
> German spelling "Teutoburgerwald" has been influenced via learned
> routes from the Roman record.

--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> The High German shift ca. AD 420?? I would think it's the later
version Duringa that shows the regular shift of þ- > d-, and that the
<th> [þ] is original, not Latinate. The Hermunduri are attested so
early that the <d> must be original as well, and it follows that the
names are not related. Thorsten's "Thorings" look good to me, though
of course I'd prefer to analyse the name as dissimilated *þunr-ing-.
>
> Piotr
>


*þunr-ing- is good also as a starting point for Tacitus' <Tungri>
(around Tongern in Belgium) which he assures us is the proper name
for those that Caesar met and called Germani, as the first. In other
words, the Turingi were the first Germani.

But there are other *Tur- places: Torino (Celtic something-or-other
Turinum, gen.pl. of a people with the old suffix -in-), Zuerich, *Tur-
ik-, and the French city Tours. Now who are they named for? Perhaps
the *turs- people, whose name reappears, Dionysos of Halikanassos
assures me, in Lat. <turris> "tower"?

Or is it very early (Celtic?) occurence of *þo:r, who Snorri assures
us spent some time in Thrace?

As for <teuto-> as Germanic, what happened to Verner? This looks
Celtic to me. Plus an Armenius, whose name is derived from an
unetymogizable <ermin>? Was Germania only truly Germanicized after
Arminius' "reconquista"?

Torsten