Re: [tied] Re: Accepted cognates of Arya?

--- wtsdv <liberty@...> wrote:

> Again, he's [ABAEV]starting his case by precluding

the

> possibility
> of Zoroastrianism at a common Alanic, or
> 'Proto-Alanic'
> stage.

*****GK: I have no problem with this. My evidence was
that a particular group of Alans converted to
Zoroastrianism, just as some later adopted Judaism,
Christianity, and Islam.*****

(wtsdv) In

> any case Abaev's point was not to equate these
> Scythians
> with the Alanic group which you mentioned, only to
> lay the
> groundwork for the argument that "The seven-god
> pantheon
> was an ancient all-Aryan convention independently
> inherited
> by both the Scythians and Zoroastrians. (Cf. the
> seven Vedic
> Aditya). Retaining the seven-gods pattern, each
> Indo-Iranian
> people filled it with its own substance
> corresponding to the
> level of its economic, social and cultural
> development." or in
> other words, that the 'avd' in 'Ardavda' need not
> have referred
> to the seven Amesha Spenta of Zorostrianism, and so
> isn't
> evidence that it was practiced by the Crimean Alans.

*****GK: I'ts been some years since I did research on
this. I'll see if there's anything else on the
Theodosians, e.g. burial evidence. At any rate,
Abaev's comment does not on its own invalidate the
Zoroastrianism of these Crimean Alans. Did the
Caucasian Ossetians name any major urban center
"Artabda", as F. was RENAMED? Was the "seven god"
notion comparatively as important to them as that of
the Amerta Spenta to the Zoroastrians? Would there not
be some relation between the city of "Sugdeia" and
Sogdiana? What is certainly clear is that a new group
of Alans arrived in the Crimea from somewhere in the
first years of the 3rd c. AD.******

> > *****GK: But the decisive argument for the
> existence of
> > Zoroastrian practices among some Alanic groups of
> Eastern
> > Europe is the confirmed presence of the
> Zoroastrian burial
> > rite in gravesites of the Saltov culture (8th and
> 9th
> > c.)as well as in areas of ancient Kyiv associated
> with
> > the "Khazars". I guess Abaev didn't know this?
>
> This is what I really wanted to know myself. What
> evidence,
> besides the name of Ardavda, is there that any Alans
> were
> ever Zoroastrian? This you've answered by pointing
> out the
> Zoroastrian burials. Although I'm curious as to
> what such a
> burial is like. Didn't Zoroastrians practice
> exposure? Are
> these burials ossuaries?

*****GK: The interpretation from reporting
archaeologists is that bodies were exposed for a
considerable period, and then bones were gathered and
placed in catacombs. Only some 700 of the extant
40,000 sites in the Saltov area have been excavated.
This BTW was a major culture. The city (known as
"Sarada") was home to about 15,000 inhabitants in the
later 9th century. This "West Khazarian" civilization
was totally destroyed by the Pechenegs between ca. 889
to ca. 909 AD.*****

Also, isn't a burial

> attributed to
> Alans in the first place based on evidence of the
> type of rite?

*****GK: The material culture was deemed "Alanic"
independently of the rite.****

> If these burials were decidedly Zoroastrian, and
> therefore not
> typically Alanic, then what additional evidence was
> present to
> prove that they were also Alanic?

*****GK: Ceramics, jewellery, and other objects.*****

>
> > BTW some of the Alans of Eastern Europe also
> adopted
> > Judaism. We have Donetz inscriptions which attempt
> to
> > write Iranic words in Hebrew script.*****
>
> This is very interesting, though of course I never
> doubted the
> ability of Alans to convert to other religions,
> since early on
> many converted to Western or Eastern Christianity,
> or Islam.
> You don't suppose you could post the Donetz
> inscriptions
> or tell where they could be found online or
> elsewhere, do
> you?

*****GK: I'm not sure. My source was a 1964 article in
the Sovetskaia Arkheologiia by G.F. Turchaninov "O
iazike nadpisei na kamnyakh Maiatskago gorodishcha i
fliagakh Novocherkasskogo muzeia", pp. 72-86.*****

Do you know to which stage of Alanic they're

> attributed?
> Are there only isolated words or are whole phrases
> or sentences
> represented?

*****GK: I don't have the article on hand. If you
don't have easy access, or someone else, I'll look it
up when I next visit Toronto.*****

>
> David
>
>

=== message truncated ===


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com