Re: [tied] Accepted cognates of Arya?

It needs to be stressed again that the original sense of 'arya'
is not really 'noble'. In Vedic arya refers to the ksatriya,
brahman and vaisya alike, but only the ksatriya are nobles.
Likewise in Avestan airya refers to the rathaesta, athravan
and vastryo fsuyant alike, and not only the rathaesta.
Again in the Ossetic Narty Kaddzhytæ the Æxsærtægkatæ,
Alægkatæ and Boratæ families are all Iron (Aryan), but only
the Æxsærtægkatæ is specifically associated with the warrior
function. If any Indo-Iranian, but no P.I.E., word can be
attached to the meaning of noble, it is the common root of
Ved. ksatriya, ksatram, ksayati, O.Pers. xsayathiya, Oss.
æxsærtæg and æxsenæ.

David

----- Original Message -----
From: Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Accepted cognates of Arya?


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark DeFillo" <ategnatos@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 8:09 PM
> Subject: [tied] Accepted cognates of Arya?
>
>
> >
> > After reading the several posts about possible and
> discredited cognates of
> > Indo-Iranian "Arya", several thoughts and questions come
> to mind:
> >
> > 1) Is AngloSaxon "Ar" cognate to the synonymous German
> "Ehre"?
>
> It is, also to ON eir. They all come from *aiz-, the
> Vernerian alternant of *ais-, as in Goth. aistan 'to
> respect', cf. Lat. aestimo: (Old English a: < PGmc. ai).
>
> > 2) Are there any good alternative theories about Old
> Celtic "Arios", other
> > than being cognate to "Arya", which some here have cast
> doubt on?
>
> Yes, a perfectly good alternative is *prh3jos 'fore(most) >
> high in importance', which would have given Celtic *arios by
> regular phonetic development.
>
> > 3) Semantically at least, it would seem reasonable and
> possibly simplest to
> > derive the above, excluding the Germanic (given the
> now-accepted derivation
> > from a different root), words from PIE h1ar- "to fit",
> since "fitting",
> > "noble", "honorable", and (in Hindu jargon English)
> "Aryan" are synonyms in
> > current usage among people of IE cultures.
>
> 'Fitting' > 'good' is a trivial semantic figure, but "IE
> cultures" is an overstatement. There is no good evidence for
> IE-scale *arya-.
>
> > 4) Is there any possibility that there is some sentiment
> involved in trying
> > to distance any European words from "Arya" due to the Nazi
> abuse of the
> > word? (Parallel to the demonization of the holy svastika
> sign in the West,
> > due again to Nazi abuse.)
>
> It was the Nazis who hijacked what had once been a
> legitimate scholarly idea (now disproved, but Schleicher's
> linguistics was less sophisticated than ours, and his
> intellectual style was Romantic). Political correctness has
> nothing to do with it.
>
> > 5) In any case, if it is assumed that these various
> similar words with
> > nearly-identical meanings are from different sources, it
> is very interesting
> > that the concept of "noble, honorable" would
> coincidentally be represented
> > by such similar but unrelated words. It is hardly the only
> case of different
> > IE languages developing similar-sounding words for the
> same or similar
> > concepts from entirely different roots. Has this
> phenomenon been explored by
> > anyone yet?
>
> There are plenty of such phantom agreements, often quoted in
> the literature as cautionary examples. E.g. Lat. deus, Gk.
> theos. Languages have large vocabularies and quirks of
> coincidence are more common that you might think. Talking of
> chance similarities, the Greeks called one of the provinces
> of the Persian empire Areia, but here for once the Aryans
> are not involved. The Persian name was Haraiva (Av.
> haroiiu-, modern Herat).
>
> Piotr