Re: [tied] Why is PIE more centum than satem?

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 12265
Date: 2002-02-04

The fact that linguistic structure is immensely complex does not mean that it is unknowable. It only means that an "overall similarity" metric taking into account "all aspects" of a language cannot be defined in a meaningful way. Imagine asking a biologist a question like, "Is a dolphin more similar to a fish or to a bat?". You wouldn't be surprised if the answer were "It depends", would you? "Similarity" is not very important in "historical biology". The general body plan of a dolphin is like that of a fish, but on other levels of description there is any number of "hidden" homologies between dolphins and bats, which biologists regard as more fundamental and more significant than the deceptive superficial similarity between dolphins and fishes. No metric is needed here. It is enough if we are able to reconstruct the position of the three groups in their common family tree. Rather than classifying organisms according to any possible arbitrary schema, we prefer a historical taxonomy, according to which two species are "closer" if they share a more recent common ancestor. The least arbitrary classification is one that reflects phylogeny. The kind of "closeness" that is of primary interest in this kind of taxonomy is genetic.
 
Historical inguistics uses a similar principle. We have a fairly reliable method which allows us to do the following:
 
(1) Decide "beyond reasonable doubt" if languages A and B are demonstrably related in the genetic sense.
 
(2) Identify regular correspondence classes between A and B.
 
(3) Formulate a detailed relationship hypothesis for A and B, including a partial reconstruction of their common ancestor (Proto-AB) and of two chains of changes (two convincing "historical narratives"), one leading from proto-AB to A and the other from Proto-AB to B.
 
As genetic relationship is a transitive relation, other languages can be compared with A and B, and if they are recognised as being related as well, the family will grow. With a little bit of luck, we may be in a position to reconstruct the internal structure of the family (its hierarchical levels of "branches" and "subbranches"). This happens if for two or more languages the initial part of their reconstructed histories is identical (for example, all the Slavic languages share the sequence of changes leading from PIE to Proto-Slavic, though their more recent histories have diverged.
 
What else would you demand of a reconstructive method? Of course we cannot prove _directly_ that PIE existed and had the properties ascribed to it, but comparative reconstruction is based on correspondences that cannot conceivably be due to chance because of their pervasiveness and regularity, and the method requires us to control the data so that secondary similarities due to borrowing are excluded from the reconstruction. It is the rigour of the method that makes PIE a logical necessity and that allows historical linguists to treat its reconstructible traits as something real. But many aspects of PIE are forever beyond our reach. Even if you had an entirely objective way of measuring the overall similarity of two "complete" language systems, PIE is not and will never be reconstructed completely.
 
To sum up, it makes perfect sense to ask if Vedic Indo-Aryan is more closely related to Mycenaean Greek than to Hittite -- this question can in principle be answered by applying reliable methods. All three languages are equally close relatives of PIE, being its lineal descendants after the same length of time (give or take a practically insignificant difference). The question which of them is most _similar_ to PIE can only be answered if you explain what you mean by "similarity" and how you propose to measure it in practice. I am afraid the answer will depend on your subjectively preferred metric. You may have heard of lexicostatistics, which uses the statistical study of vocabulary to "measure" linguistic proximity. Unfortunately, the "hard figures" it produces are of no real use in reconstructing linguistic history: vocabulary diffuses easily and at unpredictable rates, introducing errors that cannot be controlled.
 
Piotr
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: george knysh
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] Why is PIE more centum than satem?


*****GK: It seems to me even less evident that it
can't. The danger here is this: taking later, evolved,
"deeply modified" forms of the putative original as
starting points for retrospective reconstruction, and
accepting that these forms are indeed "immensely
complex objects", one risks reconstructing something
that is totally unreal, an "immensely complex" PIE
hypothesis that only exists in the imagination of
admirably qualified (but perhaps totally mistaken)
linguists. The same logic holds whether you are moving
in one direction or the other. The same difficulties
which prevent (or render idle) an adequate response to
the broached issue, should lead to the conclusion that
PIE is an artificial construct of a totally different
order than the real and attested language families
that we know. In that case, I would agree that the
issue is idle, since we are comparing real languages
with something that cannot be demonstrated to have had
a real existence. If PIE is a kind of retroactively
constructed Platonic Form, I would consider comparison
of Hittite, Sanskrit, Greek etc. to it as a completely
futile exercise in terms of historical relevance. But
if it is assumed that PIE as a total system is a truly
historical linguistic phenomenon, and if one is
confident about its "reconstruction" then the broached
issue ("which language/linguistic family is
closer/closest as a total system to this original")
becomes relevant and interesting, difficulties
notwithstanding.******