Re: [tied] Grimm and Verner

From: João Simões Lopes Filho
Message: 11879
Date: 2001-12-18

LATIN
note : D = fricative d, B = fricative b, etc
 
PIE bH > PItal  initial f , medial -B-
PIE dH > PItal initial T, medial -D- (intervocalic -D-, after n, r,l > -d-) : T>Lat. f, D>Lat.b d>Latin d
PIE gH > PItal initial x, medial -G- (intervoc  -G-, after n,r,l,i > -g-) : x > Lat. h ,  G > Lat. h   g>Lat. g
PIE gWH > PItal initial xW, medial -GW- (intervoc  -GW-, after n,r,l,i > -gW-) : xW > Lat. f ,  GW
> Lat. v   g>Lat. gu (v after vocal)
PIE s > Pital initial s, medial -z- > Latin s, -r-
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Piotr Gasiorowski
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Grimm and Verner

 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Grimm and Verner

> But if the distributions form a geographical pattern, it would seem to be more than random chance:

        Gmc   \\ Balt
     Celt   ...  \\ Slav  Iran
     -------\ ... \\
        Ital \ Thr \\ Alb    Ind
          Grk \ Arm \\
 
This representation is rather tendentious, especially as regards the location of Greek, Armenian and Albanian. Proto-Italic developed somewhere in Central Europe, east rather than south of Proto-Celtic. Proto-Hellenic and Proto-Armenian must have been located sufficiently close to Proto-Indo-Iranian to form a convergence area.


> West of the thick line, we have:

> (I) /th/, /t/, /d/;

> east of it we have:

> (II) /th/ < *tH
     /t/  < *t
     /dh/ < *dh
     /d/  < *d 

> Subtype (Ia) has:
/th/ < *t,
/t/  < *d,
/d/  < *dh,

> while (Ib) [Italo-Greek] has:
/th/ < *dh,
/t/  < *t,
/d/  < *d,
There are many risky interpolations here. For example, why Italic {tH} from {dH}? All I can see there is fricatives with voiceless and voiced allophones.
 
It won't do to ascribe an Indic-style four-way system to every group east of the thick line, including Baltic and Slavic. Putative *x < *kH < *kh2 in Slavic is _very_ doubtful, and there's no evidence whatsoever for *tH or *pH there.
 
Piotr