Re: [tied] Grimm and Verner

From: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
Message: 11868
Date: 2001-12-18

On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 02:35:45 +0100, "Piotr Gasiorowski"
<gpiotr@...> wrote:

>> So any connection with Celtic (see my other message) would not be
>profitable either, I suppose.
>
>Contrariwise, there could be at least an areal connection, if not a genetic one. As a matter of fact, I think that the spirantisation of the breathy series may be a very old process, _perhaps_ a shared apomorphy of "Northwestern IE" (with *dH > *D merging with *d in Celtic).

Hmm.. My focus was more on the aspiration of the voiceless series (*t
> *th), and, for "Western-IE" in general (including Armenian and some
of the Balkan languages, but excluding Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian and
some other Balkan languages) a common (areal) plosive system /th/ /t/
/d/ (with different origins for it, to be sure, in Latin-Greek vs.
Celtic-Germanic-Armenian).

>> If there is a voice contrast, it's more likely to be in the stops
>alone than in the fricatives alone (speaking as an Hispano-Hollandish
>person, but I believe it tends to be true in general).
>
>The fact that something "is more likely" or "tends to be true" does not mean that counterexamples should be dismissed. Who says that reconstructed Proto-Germanic must represent the cross-linguistic average? The {T, D, t} triad is not my invention but the standard Germanic reconstruction, and it looks solid enough on comparative grounds. Theoretical considerations (Boersma 1989) do not rule such a system out; they merely suggest that it would usually evolve into the more stable {T, d, t} configuration, which is just what the bulk of Germanic did in due time.

That's why I worded it like I worded it. I wasn't dismissing it "on
typological grounds", merely motivating my preference for /th/ /t/
/d/.

>There would have been no labial gap in the stop series. First, the spirantisation of voiceless stops failed in sC clusters, where the second element merged with the reflexes of the PIE "plain" [or maybe not so plain] voiced series. Secondly, there were at least a handful of lexical items like the "apple" or "lip" words, which means that PGmc. *p < *b was never non-existent, though it may have been pretty rare.

Sure enough: rare but not absent.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...