Re: [tied] Grimm and Verner

On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:49:41 -0000, "tgpedersen"
<tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>> Initial þ- is d- in Dutch and German, but then so is medial /þ/.
>Does Verner leave any "medial T"? What do you mean?

Intervocalic -þ- as in "mother", "moeder" (Ok, I meant Dutch, not
German "Mutter").

>> Initial x- has become h- everywhere.
>Now that's a good counter-argument. If voicing had applied initially,
>we would't get h-.

Indeed.

>You'd say; I'd say something else. Evidence? I don't question Verner,
>I just want to leave out the "if initial" part. The question is: can
>you formulate it thus: in the "voicing" dialects of Germanic, the "if
>initial" part of the condition should be left out (thus #t- > #D- (>
>#d-), without loss of generality), or is there evidence that it went
>via the detour over #T-, thus #t- > #T > #D- (> #d-)?

Yes: OE, OF, OS, OHG all have th-/þ- (the change to d- starts in
Bavaria ca. 750 and doesn't reach Northern Low German until the 14th
c.).

>> What's the story on the stød
>> (Danish and Vestjysk) again?
>The standard explanation is that the Danish stød corresonds to
>Swedish tone I, although it's more similar phonetically to Swedish
>tone II, which has left no trace in Danish.
>I tried ask the question once on the usenet whether Danish stød and
>Swedish tones had a connection with eg. IE tones (). No dice, the
>textbook explanation is that stød and tone I originate in ON one-
>syllable words. No attempt to relate single-syllable-ness to other
>phenomena. The buck stopped there (they say).

Is that 1-syllable words or words that have *become* monosyllabic?

>> > (and I have it on the authority of Philip Glass, that rock music
>> > only works in Germanic languages).
>>
>> Nie pierdol!
>
>No, no. You got us mixed up. Piotr's Polish, I'm Danish. Translation
>please (my Langenscheidts Dun´ski-Polsk Taschenwörterbuch has fallen
>through the floorboards somewhere)!

Roughly translated: "I like Polish rock". (You can always look it up
in Pokorny under *perd-, then apply a semantic orifice-switch).

>BTW, my phonetics teacher, Rischel, taught that in Dutch (as in
>French) it was difficult to separate words in connected speech. No
>other Germanic language I know abbreviates <I> as <'k>.

English has probably gone further than Dutch in this respect.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...