From: Rex H. McTyeire
Message: 11669
Date: 2001-12-05
O-: Torsten offered:( Jordanes says something similar,)
O-: > XI (67) Then when Buruista was King of the Goths,
O-: > Dicineus came to Gothia at the time when Sulla ruled the Romans.
To which George Kynysh responded
O-: ******GK: "Buruista" (usually the name is spelled
O-: Burebista) was never "King of the Goths" but of the
O-: GETAE [he reigned ca. 82-44 BC], a Thrakoid people
O-: living principally on the territory of contemporary
O-: Rumania . It is accepted that Cassiodorus (Jordanes'
O-: source) confused his Goths with similar sounding names
O-: (Getae, Massagetae), and was thus able to give them a
O-: better "classical" pedigree. This is not very serious
O-: stuff of course.******
(snip)
O-: Boii and Taurisci (Celtic tribes then) whom Burebista
O-: manhandled severely. Probably the areas of
O-: contemporary Czechia and Austria .
(snip)
O-:The Getae (not the Goths who at that time
O-: were still in "Scandzia") ravaged what later (not in
O-: Caesar's time) became a part of " Germania ". At any
O-: rate from the time of the arrival of the
O-: Marcomanni.****
I've been following this with intense interest, and Piotr's positions as well. Not sure I agree with anybody. I think only Herodotus would have called Burebista "Getae"..while I agree with George that Getae and Goth have no connection other than an unfortunate period tendency with some chroniclers to label any/all north of the Danube (at any point, east and west) "Goth". I also agree that Getae was "Thrakoid". If we define Tracian/Thrace/Thrakoid as what emerged before 2000 BC combining IE intrusives and Neolithic remnants about the Balkans and eastern Danube: I fail to see how any named group there, certainly between the Danube and the Aegean: can be other than Thracian, regardless of external influences and degree of dialectic change over three millennia plus. I think that it is only in comparison with a much later (Moesi) southern linguistic situation (the late and smaller neo-Thrace) after significant Greek and Anatolian influence that we get to a point (IMO) that the southern lingua franca can be differentiated from Daci and Getae (?), and then presume to call the former Thracian and the latter “other”( to include Getae, Daci and numerous subtribes) I see them as sisters of the same Thracian mother: later expanding influence on their own; and recombining elements in the pre-Roman Dacian (state or “Regional Tribal Union” if you prefer)..perhaps to offer a new (but late) redefinition of Dacian c. 200 BC, while Moesi/Moesia was experiencing different influences.
Burebista could have been Getae, Daci, Boii, of a subtribe or other intrusive/or local in my view: But in any case more accurately and safely called Dacian (from the state he was expanding (which had been around for some time before his reign) or "Geto-Daci" even more appropriate as the largest (2) representative ethnic groups (or tribes), used to define residents of that state, but allowing for numerous intrusives too ..all well after a specific Getae culture is defined by some…and then contributing to new political divisions. Certainly it is not simply "Goth", even if you extend that generically to all groups north of the Danube and allow for their intrusion by many smaller group names into the area of Dacia 500 years or so before Roman problems with them, and/or mixing anywhere about the eastern Danube?
The Massagetae remain a mystery to me; as much as I would like to be able to extend pre-Scythian Thrace that far eastward. (And, I agree that lumping them with Danubians is a dangerous leap based solely on the included "getae".) Speculative wondering, however: Is there any possibility that " massa " is related linguistically to table or flatland..in the tradition of Carpidaci (Mountain Dacians ) and Tyragetae (those Getae about the Dniester / Tyra) and Massagetae = (simply) Steppe Getae?
(And Piotr, while I accept that current local pronunciations of Getae (Jetto) and Goth (Gots) do not alone disprove a common origin…it contributes to prevent (IMO) an otherwise solely arbitrary link based simply on the presence of a G and T amid widely different dates of appearance around the (N.) eastern Danube and then south (?)
Cu Stima;
Rex H. McTyeire
Bucharest , Romania