Re: [tied] Dirmar

----- Original Message -----

From: george knysh

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:53 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] Dirmar

****GK: Specifically the question was: (PG)"I've never heard of <-mar> as an Iranian ethnonymic suffix. Any examples?" ==== So I looked up M.H. and lo and behold he gives us "Itimar", which three pretty fair linguists, viz., himself, Tomaschek, and Markwart
accept in that sense.*****

 

OK, I'll leave your idols alone ;), though not all of them were linguists, strictly speaking. Tomaschek was a historical geographer and ethnographer; Mänchen-Helfen was a versatile scholar, but did not specialise in linguistics. In such matters they had to rely on other people's opinions. Marquart's views must certainly be respected when Iranian etymologies are discussed, though if he really attempts to analyse <Itimaroi> as <Volga Men>, I can only regard this particular attempt as utterly fanciful -- the great man must have been nodding.

*****GK: My favourite mediaeval political philosopher distinguishes three levels of proof: demonstrative, probable, and apparent. Many times the last is the best that we can do. If something is plausible, fits the general context, has explanatory value, and cannot be demonstrated to be false, then it becomes a building brick. Very little is eternal here, but for the time being "apparent" proofs seem adequate.*****

 

I fail to see the explanatory value of <-mar>. It helps to make "apparent" half-sense of a couple of obscure names, being itself obscure, so it really explains nothing at all. If it could only be found attached to a recognisable base, or if we had examples of ethnonyms _known_ to be Iranian that contain it -- but I can't see anything of the sort. Talking of "apparent proofs" smacks of sophistry.

*****GK: Actually Markwart tries to interpret "Iti" as a reference to the Volga. But even I find this unsatisfactory. Doesn't matter much though. There are plenty of terms around components of which remain elusive. like "AUKHATA" "CATIARI" and such (:=))*****

 

They remain elusive because their historical context is so nebulous and there is too little hard evidence to constrain our speculation. One can invent any number of "apparent etymologies", but the problem is how to _eliminate_ The case of <aukHatai> is marginally less hopeless, because the name belongs to a recognisable pattern (the *-ta: collective), and the question is how to interpret *auka:- or *auxa:-. One (very tentative) possibility is *aukah- (Indo-Aryan okas- 'house, settlement' < *aukas- < *h1eukes-, from *h1euk- 'get accustomed', cf. Slavic *uk-/*vyk- and Lith ukis 'village'), so that the ethnonym would make sense as "villagers, sedentary farmers".

*****GK: And now my extraneous question. What do you make of "Rosomoni" in the text of Jordanes where he discusses the events in Hermanaric's state just prior to the Hun invasions? I've seen it interpreted as, if I remember correctly, "Roso-monji" (Iranic, perhaps Ossetian?) = "Ros-men". Would that make sense? If not what other interpretation might be useful?******

I suspect the first element, if Iranian, may be *rauxs^a- > *roxs^a- 'bright, shining' (cf. Oss. ruxs/roxs 'bright') < *leuk-s-o-, as in the name of the Roxolani 'Bright Alans'. I'm not sure how to interpret <-mon->. A derivative of *manu- 'thinking creature, man' is not impossible, though in Ossetic at least the pre-nasal rounding of /a/ took place much later.

 

Piotr