Re: [tied] Dirmar

----- Original Message -----

From: george knysh

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 8:25 PM

Subject: Re: [tied] Dirmar

--- Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> This is circular, isn't it, as far as <Dirmar> is concerned,

*****GK: Circular in what sense? I don't understand the point.*****

 

Because the original question was why Dirmar should be analysed as Dir-mar. A convincing argument would require _independent_ evidence for *-mar, rather than Dirmar itself. That was what I asked for. The only other example is apparently Itimar- -- an isolated, otherwise unattested and therefore dubious form, not necessarily Iranian even if genuine. The analysis of either ethnonym is incomplete anyway, since we are not told how to interpret Dir- and Iti- in Iranian or any other terms.

*****GK: Apparently Tomaschek and Markwart. I haven't read their reasoning, but Maenchen-Helfen never "cites in vain" as far as I can detect, and never hides criticism of any opinion.*****

 

Well, it seems as if he might have been off his guard in this particular case.

 

*****GK: For what it's worth he presents "mar" as "men" (plural). His work was
published posthumously (he died in 1969). What this tells me is that at least until that time no one had refuted this particular contention. And since you're pretty up to date and don't really know of anything anyone might have written to the contrary then I see
no reason at this time to reject M.H. and his sources.*****

 

Iranian words for "men" or "people" are quite simply different, so there's little to discuss here. Few experts find it worth their while to contend outdated ideas. To defend M-H's interpretation it would be enough to show that *mar- 'men' exists somewhere in Old or Middle Iranian. Why plural, BTW? Iranian languages have plural inflections and collective suffixes, but none is visible here. "Men" is <martiya:> in Old Persian, <mas^ya:> in Avestan, etc. The noun <mard-> 'man' would be OK as the second element of compound personal names (it's in fact common in Persian names), but "ethnonymic <-mar>" without the final stop makes no sense.

 

Piotr