Re: Colchians, circumcision and hypergamy (was Vanir)

--- In cybalist@..., jdcroft@... wrote:

> Regarding Colchians
>
> > > Another thing again: If the Vanir actually lived in Vani, they
> > > would have been Colchians (no?). Colchians had immigrated from
> > > Egypt, this proved by the fact that they practised circumcision
> > > (I think I read this in Herodotus?). It appears that he puts it
> > > like this:
> > --
> > > For it is plain to see that the Colchians are Egyptians; and
> > > what I say, I myself noted before I heard it from others. When

it

> > > occurred to me, I inquired of both peoples; and the Colchians
> > > remembered the Egyptians better than the Egyptians remembered
> > > the Colchians; ...the Egyptians said that they considered the
> > > Colchians part of Sesostris' army. I myself guessed it, partly
> > > because they are dark-skinned and woolly-haired; though that
> > > indeed counts for nothing, since other peoples are, too; but my
> > > better proof was that the Colchians and Egyptians and Ethiopians
> > > are the only nations that have from the first practised
> > > circumcision
> > -----
> > I read somewhere that H. is mixing up the Sesostris part with
> > something, but the c. and the dark skin and the wolly-hair seems

to

> > be his own observation So they could have come from Ethiopia also
> > I guess.
>
> Not at all. After all southern Dravidians also have brown skin and
> they came from Africa no more recently than the others. The
> Colchian association of Herodotus with Egyptians seems to be in
> error.

And the evidence is?

> The story of Sesostris campaigns in Asia seem to be a vague memory
> of Sese (Rameses II) at Kadesh, but there is no evidence of any
> Ethiopian or Kushitic troops settling in North Eastern Anatolia!

I don't think Herodotus said that they were Ethiopian or Kushitic.
But BTW isn't this one of the loci the "Black Athena" folks use as
evidence? Were some Egyptians dark?

Perhaps we should consider this too, from Jordanes:

"
(44) Then, as the story goes, Vesosis waged a war disastrous to
himself against the Scythians, whom ancient tradition asserts to have
been the husbands of the Amazons. Concerning these female warriors
Orosius speaks in convincing language. Thus we can clearly prove that
Vesosis then fought with the Goths, since we know surely that he
waged war with the husbands of the Amazons. They dwelt at that time
along a bend of Lake Maeotis, from the river Borysthenes, which the
natives call the Danaper, to the stream of the Tanais.
...
(47) This was the region where the Goths dwelt when Vesosis, king of
the Egyptians, made war upon them. Their king at that time was
Tanausis [one of Saxo's king Dan's?]. In a battle at the river Phasis
(whence come the birds called pheasants, which are found in abundance
at the banquets of the great all over the world) Tanausis, king of
the Goths, met Vesosis, king of the Egyptians, and there inflicted a
severe defeat upon him, pursuing him even to Egypt. Had he not been
restrained by the waters of the impassable Nile and the
fortifications which Vesosis had long ago ordered to be made against
the raids of the Ethiopians, he would have slain him in his own land.
But finding he had no power to injure him there, he returned and
conquered almost all Asia and made it subject and tributary to
Sornus, king of the Medes, who was then his dear friend. At that time
some of his victorious army, seeing that the subdued provinces were
rich and fruitful, deserted their companies and of their own accord
remained in various parts of Asia
"

and from

http://hum.gu.se/arkiv/ONN/1997/ONN.06/1657.html

"
Jordanes says that this happened some generations before the time of
"Vesosis", that is, Sesostris (the corrupt forms Sesosis, Vesosis
appear also in Justin's history); no matter which Sesostris is meant
the exodus must have taken place before the middle of the second
millennium B.C
"

Perhaps I should be getting around to reading Justin. Is he to be
found somewhere on the net?

> Herodotus was right to see that the Anatolians circumcised their
> dead. This is confirmed by Egyptian records who comment on the
> fact that the Peoples of the Sea, like the Egyptians and unlike
> Libyans, Kushitics and Asiatics at the time also practiced
> circumcision. But given the number of times that the mythology of
> this area refers to castration (eg, Uranus, Anu, Kumarbis etc) - a
> custom which explains how non-circumcising people would have seen
> circumcision - then we can probably propose an independent centre
> for circumcision in ancient Anatolia.
>

We probably can, against the testimony of Herodotus.

>
> > > Njord married his sister, because that was
> > > permitted among the Vanir, but not among the Aesir. But
> > > Herodotus assures us that the only people that permitted that,
> > > were Egyptians?
>
> The Egyptians were not the only people to practice brother-sister
> marriages. In fact it appears wherever hypergamy is established in
> a ruling house, in which wives and daughters have to marry someone
> of higher status than themselves. Sisters of the ruling house
> therefore have to marry their brothers or remain unmarried.

Could you provide examples of that, other than Egyptians and
Colchidians (and Sea Peoples, then! *D-n-n among them? Hm.), within
Herodotus' horizon? That would be nice.

Torsten