[tied] Re: Baltic *gud3- (message 8073)

From: gknysh@...
Message: 11277
Date: 2001-11-19

I've looked, and here's my take.

--- In cybalist@..., "Sergejus Tarasovas" <S.Tarasovas@...> wrote:
> My (speculative, to some extent) scenario is like that:
> from the territory of today's Poland the Goths hit the road towards
the Black Sea. A part of them by some reason (I can't just buy
Jordanes' broken bridge) didn't cross Pripyat' ('undeamnem...
locus...tremulis paludibus voragine circumiecta concluditur'),
overrided local Balts, but were assimilated by them later.

*****GK: Is there any new archaeological evidence of a Gothic
presence there? The Welbark culture associated with them is
concentrated on the Lower Vistula (both banks), all along the Bug
(both banks) and then on to the Ukrainian rivers south of the
Prypjat', where it progressively dissolves. This is very much in line
with the tales of Gothic expansionism towards the Black Sea. From the
IV th c. many sites of the Chernyakhiv culture may also be associated
with Goths. To my knowledge though there are neither Welbark nor
Chernyakhiv sites in the areas of Belarus where one might expect them
preparatory to the emergence of the "Gudai".******

(ST)This new subethnos was named *Gudai 'Goths' by their northern
Baltic neighbors. When it was some centuries later absorbed by the
Slavs, this subethnos retained it's 'Gothic' ethnonym, which then
simply began to mean 'our southern neighbors'.

*****GK: I believe there is an article on this problem written by
Prof. Eduard Hermann (1869-1950). The article is entitled: "Sind der
Name der Gudden und die Ortsnamen Danzig, Gdingen ubnd Grudenz
gotischen ursprungs?" It was published in 1941 in the Nachrichten der
Akademie der Wissenschaften in Goettingen (Philol.-hist. Klasse)
(pp.207-291). I had the opportunity to look at it once, but
unfortunately was busy with many other matters at the time, and did
not take extensive notes. Perhaps Mr. Tarasovas could remedy this for
the forum. I do have a note though, indicating that the first
attested use of the term occurs in 1546, and that it refers to "the
Rus'ian population of the Lithuanian-Polish state". Which would then
include not only Belarusans but also Ukrainians and some Russians.==
Pritsak claims the following (op. cit. p. 133): "After the main mass
of Ostrogoths abandoned the Ukraine and migrated through Moesia (ca.
475-488) to Italy, the remnants of the Goths who stayed behind called
the Ukraine REITHGOTALAND. When the Baltic (mainly Lithuanian) tribes
encountered the ancestors of the Belorussians and Ukrainians who had
come from the middle Dnieper region some time in the eighth or ninth
century [there is a reference here to Tretyakov=GK],they still found
the term "Goths" in use both with reference to the population of the
area and to emigres from it. They preserved until historical times
(from ca. 1546 to the present) the term GUDA-S (sing.)/GUDA-I (pl.)
for the "Rus'ian population of the Lithuanian-Polish state," that is,
Ukrainians and Belorussians, in contrast to MASKVOS, Muscovites."
[with a reference to Hermann]=== GK: I must confess that I found
this Pritsak analysis rather doubtful. The Old Ukrainian chronicles
certainly know the term "Goths", but they never use it with respect
to the inhabitants of the contemporary Belarus and Ukraine (They
usually prefer "Krivichi" for the former and "Rus'" for the latter).
In their perspective, "Goths" are either a Scandinavian people of the
Baltic or a population of the Crimea. But since the issue is not what
Old Ukrainians thought or wrote but what Old Lithuanians did, I'll
keep an open mind until I've refreshed my memory (or have it
refreshed for me) about Hermann's views and any other pertinent
material.*****




> I must admit that I'm partly *Gudas myself, so there's a bit of
tendency in that scenario ;)
>
> Sergei