From: João S. Lopes Filho
Message: 11269
Date: 2001-11-19
----- Original Message -----
From: <tgpedersen@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 9:51 AM
Subject: [tied] Re: Vanir
> --- In cybalist@..., malmqvist52@... wrote:
> > Hi,
> > Torsten:
> > > I had one more idea as to who the Vanir (Vani?) were.
> > > Suppose they were originally *waGn- something?
> > >
> > > Anders provided this interesting overview of early runic
> > inscriptions
> > > by Looijenga:
> > >
> > > http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/c5.pdf
> > >
> > > There are three bog finds of weapons with the word <wagnijo>
> found
> > in
> > > Denmark, two in Illerup bog, dated with coins to not before 181
> CE.
> > > The blades of the swords are Roman, the handles local, Germanic.
> > Are
> > > they old hand-me-downs? I know from my time in the artillery how
> > long
> > > iron can be kept functional, with proper maintenance.
> > > Looijenga proposes a connection with Vangiones, a tribe that
> fought
> > > against Caesar under Ariovist (and everybody now probably knows
> > what
> > > role I've given him, so I won't repeat it), with the cohors
> > Vangionum
> > > stationed in Britain, and with the word for wain, waggon.
> >
> > So far the I think I agree to the reasoning. Interesting!
> >
> > > Now suppose
> > > the Vani on the Black Sea were IE, could they be Waggoners?
> >
> > This Aliexeev from your post:
> > "This kingdom is influenced by Greece but it also
> > has its native cultural traditions 6. Linguists do not know which
> > languages were spoken "
> >
> > So why suppose they were IE? Just asking.
> Well, I supposed the _name_ was IE. On the other hand, other
> researchers identify them with the Svan, which means they were
> Kartvelian-speaking. Close to present Georgian. The location fits.
> >
> > > As for the weapons in Illerup, this might be the defeat of the
> Odin
> > > elite,
> >
> > I don't really follow You here. Do you think that Odin was
> belonging
> > to a "Vani"-people?
> > Wasn't Your theory that Ariovist was =Odin the As?
>
> Yup, but after the arrival in Scandinavia they more or less merged.
> Anyway, no one can say for sure if the losing former owners bog
> weapons were the attackers or defenders, so I can opt for either.
> BTW, possibly the weapons were collectively owned, Tacitus has a
> story a northern Germanic tribe who let a slave guard their weapons
> in peace time. Thus <wangijo>: property of the Vangiones tribe.
>
> >
> >
> > >the expulsion of the Heruli, who were fighting with their
> > > ancestors' swords?
> >
> > I guess that most people interpret Jordanes As if the said
> expulsion
> > was close in time to when he wrote it. That would be in the late
> > fifth or in the sixth century.
> >
> > Don't ask me Why it is so. Personally I'm cosidering a much
> earlier
> > date.
> > Since many people associate Heruls with runes, it looks attractive
> to
> > me to see the war sacrifice at Illerup as goods from defeated
> Herules
> > And that the surviving ones were expelled (?).
> Yup.
>
> >
> > But in my opinion then the time when the Herules lived north of the
> > Black Sea, as Heluri as Jordanes/Ablabius calles them, also must be
> > put much further back in time.
> > Perhaps then further back than Ariovist and Mithridates.
> I think it's possible that the Cherusci (Arminius from the
> Teutoburger Wald was one) might have been *Herulski (cf. Old Danish
> dan vs. Danish dansker "Dane"). But since they were also a class,
> only after their expulsion they are really "a people".
>
> >
> > From the reading in Jordanes here also it can't be determined the
> > time. Right?
> Right. Except it was before Jordanes wrote it, obviously.
>
> > So anything seems possibe.
> >
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Anders
>
> Torsten
>
>
>
>
>
>
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