Re: Vanir

--- In cybalist@..., malmqvist52@... wrote:

> Hi,
> Torsten:
> > I had one more idea as to who the Vanir (Vani?) were.
> > Suppose they were originally *waGn- something?
> >
> > Anders provided this interesting overview of early runic
> inscriptions
> > by Looijenga:
> >
> > http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/c5.pdf
> >
> > There are three bog finds of weapons with the word <wagnijo>

found

> in
> > Denmark, two in Illerup bog, dated with coins to not before 181

CE.

> > The blades of the swords are Roman, the handles local, Germanic.
> Are
> > they old hand-me-downs? I know from my time in the artillery how
> long
> > iron can be kept functional, with proper maintenance.
> > Looijenga proposes a connection with Vangiones, a tribe that

fought

> > against Caesar under Ariovist (and everybody now probably knows
> what
> > role I've given him, so I won't repeat it), with the cohors
> Vangionum
> > stationed in Britain, and with the word for wain, waggon.
>
> So far the I think I agree to the reasoning. Interesting!
>
> > Now suppose
> > the Vani on the Black Sea were IE, could they be Waggoners?
>
> This Aliexeev from your post:
> "This kingdom is influenced by Greece but it also
> has its native cultural traditions 6. Linguists do not know which
> languages were spoken "
>
> So why suppose they were IE? Just asking.

Well, I supposed the _name_ was IE. On the other hand, other
researchers identify them with the Svan, which means they were
Kartvelian-speaking. Close to present Georgian. The location fits.

>
> > As for the weapons in Illerup, this might be the defeat of the

Odin

> > elite,
>
> I don't really follow You here. Do you think that Odin was

belonging

> to a "Vani"-people?
> Wasn't Your theory that Ariovist was =Odin the As?

Yup, but after the arrival in Scandinavia they more or less merged.
Anyway, no one can say for sure if the losing former owners bog
weapons were the attackers or defenders, so I can opt for either.
BTW, possibly the weapons were collectively owned, Tacitus has a
story a northern Germanic tribe who let a slave guard their weapons
in peace time. Thus <wangijo>: property of the Vangiones tribe.

>
>
> >the expulsion of the Heruli, who were fighting with their
> > ancestors' swords?
>
> I guess that most people interpret Jordanes As if the said

expulsion

> was close in time to when he wrote it. That would be in the late
> fifth or in the sixth century.
>
> Don't ask me Why it is so. Personally I'm cosidering a much

earlier

> date.
> Since many people associate Heruls with runes, it looks attractive

to

> me to see the war sacrifice at Illerup as goods from defeated

Herules

> And that the surviving ones were expelled (?).

Yup.

>
> But in my opinion then the time when the Herules lived north of the
> Black Sea, as Heluri as Jordanes/Ablabius calles them, also must be
> put much further back in time.
> Perhaps then further back than Ariovist and Mithridates.

I think it's possible that the Cherusci (Arminius from the
Teutoburger Wald was one) might have been *Herulski (cf. Old Danish
dan vs. Danish dansker "Dane"). But since they were also a class,
only after their expulsion they are really "a people".

>
> From the reading in Jordanes here also it can't be determined the
> time. Right?

Right. Except it was before Jordanes wrote it, obviously.

> So anything seems possibe.
>
>
> Best wishes
> Anders

Torsten