--- Piotr Gasiorowski <
gpiotr@...> wrote:
> I am afraid, George, that what you've come up with
> is folk
> etymologies. You can't analyse Scythian words by
> comparing them with
> arbitrary combinations of roots extracted from a
> Sanskrit dictionary,
> without as much as checking how those roots
> collocate with other
> elements when forming compounds. The vocabulary of
> Sanskrit is
> enormous and such matches are easy to obtain, but
> they won't stand up
> to closer scrutiny.
*****GK: I appreciate your caveat Piotr. What I was
looking for in the Sanskrit are indications of what
the elements of these Scythian terms might have meant.
And note that I tried to link this with historical
information, not simply let it hang on its own. Not
quite like the "folk etymology" which derives "Polany"
from "those who live in the fields". [BTW I have in
mind the Kyivan Polany of yore, no ethnic pun intended
(:=))]
>
> >>GK: PARALATAE. I reconstructed this as PARA-LATA.
> Acc. to the Cologne
> lexicon this might mean "The First Whips" or "The
> Chief Whips". <<
>
> It can mean no such thing "according to the
> lexicon", since nothing
> like *para-lata- is given there. The lexicon lists
> <para-> and <lata-
> > separately, and the translation is your own
> proposal.
*****GK: True. I should have said "according to
elements provided in the lexicon." After all if these
names had been listed there it would have been too
easy, and hardly worth mentioning.****
However, you
> must have noticed that <lata-> is recorded with
> several meanings, the
> primary one being 'creeping plant'; 'thong of a
> whip' is just a
> figurative extension of that, one of several.
*****GK: There are in fact many such figurative
extensions, incl. "slender body", "swordblade",
"lightning", "woman" and not just "thong of a whip"
but "whip" itself. Presumably this indicates that we
need not only refer to the principal meanings when
wondering about a term.*****
> <para-> means 'far,
> distant, ulterior' and can acquire the sense
> 'ultimate',
*****GK: But "para" also means "highest" "supreme"
"chief" "best", and can be a prefix to nouns.*****
but it
> requires a leap of faith to interpret *paralata- as
> 'chief
> whip'. "Foreign Creepers", perhaps ;)?
*****GK: Given the alternative meanings recorded in
the lexicon the leap of faith is rather small. What
attracted me was a possible link of this name to the
story of how the Royal Scythians decided to subdue
their rebellious slaves with "whips" instead of more
lethal weapons. Now the story is obviously silly. Had
they really tried to do this they'd have been wiped
(not whipped (:=)) out. But it may have been an
explanation of the name offered to Herodotus, and a
reflection of Scythian "aristocratic" attitudes in his
day. I realize this is tenuous. But it is not as
ridiculous as you make it sound. A guess, which one is
free to find unconvincing, but it does have points of
contact with recorded material, both linguistic and
historical. Anyway, I like Chris' reminder of Dumezil
too, since it solves one problem my "reconstruction"
does not. I'll think some more about this.******
>
> >> CATIARI. I found KATI-ARA in the Lexicon which
> translates as "The
> Very Swift". <<
>
> Again, what you found was <kati-> and <ara->, not
> the combination
> *kati-ara-, and the interpretation is yours, not
> anything actually
> found in the lexicon.
****GK: True. I put them together. See above.*****
The interrogative pronoun
> <kati-> means 'how
> many?' (cf. Latin quot) and must be followed by
> particles like <-cid-
> >, <-cana-> or <-api-> to be translated as 'several'
> or 'often'
> (not 'very').
*****GK: I take your point. At least it does in
Sanskrit apparently. There is also "Katara", but that
usually means "lecher" or "coward" hardly a proper
name for a ruling Scythian group... Unless it could
mean exactly the reverse. Like "para" which can mean
either "best" or "worst". So not "lechers" but
"self-controlled", and not "cowards" but "heroes".
This is really reaching. Are there other words in
Sanskrit whose sounds can convey exactly opposite
meanings?*****
>
> >> TRASPIES. I tried TARA-RASPA, which translates
> as "Lords of the
> Mighty Roar". <<
>
> Same thing again. _You_ translate it so, for reasons
> that escape me
> altogether.
*****GK: In the lexicon "tara"=conquering, surpassing,
excelling; "ras"= roar; and "pa"= guarding,
protecting, ruling. TARARASPA results. The noise of
the Lower Dnipro falls (there were many) is well
documented in literature. I believe that the first
mention of this is in Constantine Porphyrogenitus. But
I could well have come up with an artificial
construct. And here also Chris' reminder of Dumezil
was most helpful. The issue of the Scythian language
is far from resolved. But the probability that the
later comers were of Iranic speech is very high (the
word "ksaj" =king [like in Kshayarsha=Xerxes) in the
names of the sons of Targitaus of the SFL.*****
>
> >> AUCHATAE. This I related to AU-KHATA which
> according to the
> Lexicon means "earth-tillers" or "earth-plowers" or
> "earth-diggers".
> <<
>
> Again, there is no such thing as *au-kHa:ta- in the
> lexicon, with or
> without the meaning you ascribe to it; <au-> doesn't
> mean 'earth' in
> the sense of 'ground, soil', and the meaning
> 'digger, delver' would
> be expressed by a different derivative, e.g.
> <kHa:-tar-> or <kHani-
> tar->. <kHa:-ta-> is a past participle meaning 'dug,
> buried, etc.'
*****GK: Again I used the Sanskrit lexicon as an
indicator of possible meaning re a language which has
disappeared but could have had affinities (rather than
identities). The very fact that one of the meanings of
"au" was "earth" (even if, as you say, in Sanskrit it
does not mean "soil" or "ground") suggested to me that
in Scythian it may have had that meaning. And the
Sanskrit grammar re KHATA was also no concern
particularly since I was not looking to show that
Scythian was Sanskrit. If the root pointed to "dig"
"plough" that was good enough for a starting
hypothesis. And not because of folk etymology but
because of the relationship visible to the
"land-tilling" Scythians, still remembered by Pliny as
"Aratores".*****
>
> This doesn't mean that I have convincing alternative
> proposals up my
> sleeve. I just want to warn you that linguists will
> reject your
> etymologies.
*****GK: Hopefully they can come up with better ones
for me to adopt. (:=))*****
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com