Re: [tied] Re: Anouilh

From: Che
Message: 9495
Date: 2001-09-15

In my opinion, Gascon is the galloromanic version of spanish, a latin dialect spoken by basques, some kind of patoise, not in the pejorative french sense, but meaning it is a pidgin, a mix with practical communicational purposes between the basque and latin communities in origin which finally becomes a different linguistic system.
I think the difference between spanish and gascon is that spanish is the result of basque on vulgar latin, while gascon is the result on occitan. It makes sense as current gascon speaking areas in Aran Valley in NW Catalonia, for instance, used to be basque(oid) speaking until the XIV-XV centuries, so occitan was addopted much more lately that Spanish in the original spanish speaking areas and thus its influence is made upon occitan rather to latin itself. Anyway, the occitan filliation of gascon can't be discussed, just because of that late influence, I mean just because they addopted occitan so lately they haven't been able to develop a different language, so Piotr was right when said Gascon was occitan.
About Aquitanian, in my opinion, the relationship with euskera is the same as latin and romance, it is, just a matter of time, so there's not such a "substratum" in euskera, but the language itself in a previous stage.
There are lots of phonetic features as well as grammar showing obvious basque influence, although some tried to demonstrate it was not true, I don't know exactly how (was it you who mentioned a scholar against this theories, Piotr? I'd like to go a little deeper on this subject, I'm very fond of basque influence on romance discussions), being one of the most famous the change of latin initial "f" > "h", like in spanish, or the deletion of intervocalic "n". Grammar features include such an oddity like the use of the emfatic and "probability" preffix "ba-" in certain verbal tenses exactly as modern basque does (it's difficult to explain without getting too long).
By the way, they gascons don't call it Gascon, but Gascunh  (may be "Gascunha" related to "Baskonia" > "Vaskonia" > "Gasconia"? Just wondering)
----- Original Message -----
From: Max Dashu
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Anouilh

>>Remember gascon is quite different  to regular occitan dialects and has
>>many unique phonetic and grammar  features. <<

This has been confusing me ever since Piotr wrote something that seemed to
equate Occitan and Gascon. I had always thought Gascon was much more
influenced by Basque, as per the name. But on reflection, endings like -itz
in trobaritz sure don't look Romance, and sound more like Basque. What is
the story with these two: both have an Aquitanian substrate, but Occitan
more romanized, or what?


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