Re: [tied] Re: Danubian homeland?

From: Glen Gordon
Message: 9333
Date: 2001-09-11

>Rather than having half the words for domesticated anaimals coming
>from one source and direction, and half from another, logic would
>suggest that there was a single source

That's faulty logic. Of course we would like to make the solution
as simple as possible but the solution must be only as simple as
the evidence suggests. I would strongly argue against a single
source for IE agricultural terms. Afterall, a _plurality_ of
linguistic influences is seen in practically *every* language on
this planet. English, for example, has endured many influences
in its day, from Norman French (season, render) to Inuktitut
(igloo, kayak). I feel no shame in proposing multiple sources
for IE as well. The etymology of each IE root as with all languages
must be examined with care.

>Personally I see both terms the Tyrrhenian and IE myths as coming
>from the agrarian source too. For example Akkadian *Ishtar, West
>Semitic *Astarte (Morning/evening star, i.e. Venus) comes from the
>same source.

Yes, in the archives, you'll see my *Xast�ra proposal for
Tyrrhenian. Basically, *Xast�ra was borrowed from Mid IE
*Xest�re around 5500 BCE (later IE *xste:r "star"). From the
Tyrrhenians, the word was spread across the eastern Mediterranean
through prehistoric sea trade and hence Semitic *`aTtaritu- and
Egyptian Hathor (a name reanalysed into Egyptian terms as the
"house of Horus").

gLeNny gEe
...wEbDeVEr gOne bEsErK!

email: glengordon01@...

>I wonder whether Tyrrhenian was located to the north or south of

My thoughts: First it was north of the IE (c.7000-6000 BCE),
then west (c.6000-5500) and then south (c.5500 onward).

>Archaeologically there is evidence of cultural features pushing "out
>of Anatolia" at this period rather than into it. Climates were
>warming and there seems to have been a general trend towards people
>from the south moving north, rather than people coming back the other
>way. For Tyrrhenians to have moved into Anatolia they must have swum
>against the population density.

No, here, you get confused as usual between demic and cultural
movement. The "movement" of Tyrrhenians into Anatolia is largely
a cultural one. Since the Tyrrhenians were the well-to-do people
of the time, everyone wanted to be like them :) The movement
of the Vinca and the Semitish peoples would, of course, have to
be a demic one but they appear to be less numerous or
cultural predominant peoples as far as I get the impression.

>This is incredibly early for such movements. The coming of the
>Greeks is generally dated some time between 2200 and 1900 BCE.

Obviously, IE had begun to fragment c.4000 BCE. Hence, it is
not early at all. I would say the date of Tyrrhenian decline
centres around 3500 BCE.

>Kaska seem etymologically related to the Kaukasi, Kolkhoi, Khatti,
>Khurri, Khaldi, Kaspoi and Khassiti pre I-E people who lived in
>Anatolia, Georgia, Armenia, northern Mesopotamia and the Zagros

Could you justify this claim? As far as I understand, the Kaskians
are understood to be distinct from the Hatti and the Hittites.
Needless to say, however, I do not deny the _cultural_ (rather
than linguistic) affectation of the area by the easterly Caucasic
peoples, who had developped agriculture afterall!

>What Glen suggests is that the Tyrrhenians are the substrate to Indo-
>Europeans in the area of Southern Russia and the Balkans. One would
>expect toponyms to reflect this situation. Are there any?

I already mentioned city names! The name of Troy might
have once been *Tarw�seta ("place of Taru"). Taru or Tarxu is, of
course, the Hattic name for the supposedly Hittite god Tarhunt
(meaning "the conqueror"). I would suggest however that Troy was
once a Hattic city dedicated to their native god Taru (< *Launon
"lion/bull"). From there, the Tyrrhenian language took over, where
it was now called *Tarw�seta. Then, the Anatolians came in and
called it *T(a)ru�s-. The name of the god however was adopted into
the Anatolian languages via Hattic where it was reinterpreted as
the "conqueror" because the name had a superficial similarity to
*tarxunt- based on the IE verb *terx-.

Again, there might also be *Paraseta ("place of the houses";
< *para "house" < Egyptian) for the city of Parnassos as well as
what the Greek refered to as both Tetrapolis and Ytte:nia
(*Xottena "Four Peoples"). And who knows, maybe Knossos was once
*Kan�seta which explains the kn- in Greek Knossos via the strange
rule of Tyrrhenian accentuation off of *a.

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