Re: [tied] -lh- / you

From: João S. Lopes Filho
Message: 8889
Date: 2001-08-31

In Portuguese there's a exact equivalent for Spanish "usted"

vossa merce^ > vosmece^ > voce^ (coloquially in many parts of Brazil >oce^ >
ce^ )

In Brazilian Portuguese vos (2nd plural) is already obsolete, substituted by
voce^s. The 2nd singular, tu, was virtually substituted by voce^. But the
use of "tu" is kept in Southernmost Brazil, a feature of the so called
"gaucho" accent.

Joao S Lopes

----- Original Message -----
From: <tgpedersen@...>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] -lh-

> --- In cybalist@..., "Che DeBarna" <almogaver69@...> wrote:
> > I was sure it had to happen somewhere in Brazil! Thanks for the
> info.
> Then... mmm... I've got my own theory about Latin American Spanish,
> which I believe to reflect a different thing that an "andalusian"
> dialect. How much has Andalusia been Castillian before the (re)
> discovery of America? Is this period long enough for "andalusian" to
> become so different to "regular" Castillian? I don't think so... I'd
> rather think seriously about basque influence (no, it's not that I'm
> obsessed about basque, it's just that in my opinion it has always
> been unfairly ignored). Just notice that the most of
> the "conquistadores" where either directly basque-born or sons of
> those basques (more specifically: bizkaians) who migrated towards the
> south (that includes Extremadura) searching for a job in what was
> their specialty: the sea. Standing there as an evidence is the fact
> that the most common family name in the whole Spain is "García", but
> not the original Bizkaian one, but the southern! In my opinion,
> basque sailors and "conquistadores" are responsible for the special
> american "s", identical to basque "z" and of the famous
> american "voseo", it is, the substitution of the second person
> singular pronoun "tu" by "vos", which is gramatically equivalent to
> the 2nd plural "vosotros" (like English thou>you). It is something
> that happened by the same time in basque "hi" ("thou") is replaced
> by "zu" ("you"). The difference with English is that this kept "you"
> for both sing. and plural, while basque created a regular plural
> for "zu">"zuek" and american spanish used its original "vosotros".
> Dutch has, as far as I can see, calqued Spanish: 2nd pl. <je> "ye" >
> 2nd sg; new 2nd pl. <je lie> ("you folks")> <jullie>; even <Uwe
> genade> "your Grace" > <U> cf. Spanish <vuestra merced> > <Usted>.
> You might argue that English has the same construction <you guys> for
> 2nd pl.
> At least that puts it in the same time frame.
> Torsten
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