Re: [tied] Affects of immigrant communities in language change

From: Joseph S Crary
Message: 8417
Date: 2001-08-09

Good God Glen don't go medieval on me

Lighten up...

I'm trying to be positive

just meant if you expand your search
you may find something unexpected

From Glen today:

>If you were trying to say that there is some doubt about the
relationship of Lemnian to Etruscan, this is absurd. There are not
only similar words to Etruscan on the Lemnos Stele but also the
same grammatical suffixes and numerals<

Not at all

However, I'm trying to ascertain the direction of influence. You
didn't provide evidence of this.

Etruscan-Lemnos or Lemnos-Etruscan

As you know, it's key to your theory

I'll send the Herodot word for word later. For now...

From what I've translated so far Herodotus
records a western Anatolian tradition about an
extensive drought that occurs, as or just before,
the Ludi polity consolidates. Apparently, prior to this the
this region was controlled by the Meii. Despite attempts
to divine or influence the course of the drought it
continues for 18 years. The Ludi king forces the
abandonment of a district and this population constructs
a fleet and resettles in Umbria, Italy. A Ludi king named
Tursêniên heads the expedition to Italy.

1) The Ludi-Lydians appear to be Luwians.
2) The name of the Ludi king Atya or Attu appears similar to the
Luwian words adduwali or at, which mean angry and eat, respectively.
3) This Attu has been confused with a son of the 6th century
Lydian Croesus.
4) The drought, abandonment, and migration story sounds like a
Late Bronze Age setting.

I have no problem with a tradition about abandonments in western
Anatolia and their resettlement in Italy in the LB. However, this
particular tradition, as told, doesn't say anything about this
populations language being different or unusual. Interestingly,
Herodotus does say that the language of the population of Lemnos and
Imbros is different from all others, calling them Pelasgians-Pelasgon.

Herodotus recounts that the Pelasgi were the dominant population in
Greece before the Dorian migration. He also says something about the
Ionians of Attica, at one time, being Pelasgi, but later they adopted
the Hellenic lingo.

I've found a number of Classical references that also place
Pelasgi-speaking populations in Attica, Thessalonian, Epirus, Thrace,
Argos, Peloponnesus, and Crete. Herodotus also says that the people
that lived north of the Tyrsenans in Italy were Pelasgi.

Now this may be totally off target, because it seems to have nothing
to do with the Etruscans, but you may fine this interesting. Its the
names of the Sea People, from Egypt, that where associated with a
Late Bronze Age mass migration that hit the eastern Mediterranean in
the late 13th and early 12th centuries.

A-qi-ya-wa-sa/ A-qi-wa-sa/
Rendered as Ekwesh or Achewash
[Greece and Aegean (as Achaean)-Homeric ethnic name, Palestine]

Danuna (D-y-n-yw-n)
Rendered as Danaan
[Argos (Danaus) and northwest Anatolia (Dardanaus)-Homeric ethnic
name, Dan-Palestine]

Wasasa (W-s-s)
Rendered as Washesh or Wassos
[Western Anatolia-Lydian-Homeric ethnic name, Asher-Palestine]

Tjikar (T-k-k[-r])
Rendered as Tjekker or Teukori
[Northwestern Anatolia Homeric ethnic name (Teuthrians or Teukrians)
and Dor-Palestine]

Sa-k(a)-ru-su (s'-r'-rw-s')
Rendered as Sheklesh or Siekli
[Palestine, Sicily-Italy]

Ta-ru-sa (Tw-rw-s'/ Tw-ry-s')
Rendered as Tursha, Tyrsha, or Ta-rasna (prefix ta and see Rw-ku
below)[North west Anatolia-Homeric ethnic name, Palestine, Umbria-

Sa-ra-d-n/ Sa-ar-di-na (S'-r'd-n)
Rendered as Shardin
[Sardis-Lydian western Anatolia, Akko-Palestine, Sardinia-Italy]

Pe-ra-sa-ta/ Peleset (Pw-r-s-ty)
Rendered as Pelesti
[Pelesgi-Aegean, Philistine-Palestine,

Rw-ku (Rw-kw)
Rendered as Rawkaw
[western Anatolia-Lydian (Luwian-Razawa also formerly translated as
Arzawa), Palestine, Rasna or Rasenna-Italy (the name the Etruscan
called themselves)]

I'm not sure if this would hold up, however it suggests that this
is a rather complex period and that a number of sea born populations
from the Aegean and western Anatolia fan out in a huge migration
throughout the eastern and middle Mediterranean in the late stage of

This information gives your theory a basis in the Aegean and western
Anatolia. Still is there any evidence from the southern or western

JS Crary