Re: Urartu.

From: Joseph S Crary
Message: 8242
Date: 2001-08-02

Sorry about the spelling

I really don't know about the Geata and Goth. I've always viewed
as separate. I realize Beowulf is called both a
Geata and a Gar Dene, I'm just not sure what that
means. Piotr not sure if you are saying Geata and
Goth are related or not? My question is, since we know
there was an earlier Celt linguistic stratum in
Denmark, isn't it speculative to assume that Geata is
derived from a nordic-German root? Just asking?

I was speculating that if the root used in the Celt Gaestae and
Beowulf's Geatas are the same, could they be loan words that have
a proto-Thracic origin associated with a word found in Getae.
The reason I'm asking is because there appears to
be so many names for spear in Gaelic its not
funny. Additionally, over time, this term or a term like it,
seems to pop up all over the place, but the Thracian example
appears to be the earliest. Clearly, the Thracian
usage is associated with some deity.

The reason I ask is because the Celt Gaestae were made
up young warriors that banned together irregardless of tribal
affiliations. In this respect, they were not a warrior class as much
as a socio-religious order. Thus, the indications of Celts that turn
up in Ptolemic Egypt, may not be so much the product of migration
from a single tribe or confederation. Rather these Celts may be
evidence of Gaestae, today reduced to the status of mercenary.

We know that many waves, big and small, of Gaestae washed over Italy,
Greece, and Asia Minor. I wonder if the root of the term is proto-
Thracian, if it originated north of the Black Sea, if it is possible
that the embryonic concept of the Gaestae began there as well? Of
course this would assume that the term, socio-religious order, and
those that carried both somehow were established within old or newly
established Celt societies to the west, about the time of the
transition from Hallestatt to Let├žne? I say this because there is
evidence that Gaestae preceded the main migrations into Italy around
400 BC, some 80 to 50 years later.

Taking this further, there is an account of Ambroni who had settled
among the Ligures in northwest Italy about five generations before
the Cimbri and Teutoni migration. As you know this was period when
the last big wave of Gaestae broke over Italy. As you also know the
teutoni included a large force of Ambroni while the Roman army
employed Ambroni from the Ligurian towns. Two points to be made here.
1st) Its clear that the Ambroni tribal base was located most likely
in Saxony, so there is a connection with Denmark. 2nd) the Ambroni
appear to have Gaestae. In addition to this some of the accounts
between the Cimbri and Marius in Italy indicate Gaestae among them as

This may explain why this term and association with spear men keeps
poping up without a solid connection to anyone tribal or ethnic
group, or even the Romanian-Moldavian Getae. Like the crusaders the
order and/or concept may have had a ethnic point of origin, but as
small groups, or as individuals it could move between tribes and
states with ease. Without leaving much of a paper trail, this order
could reassemble as another but similar configuration. As a socio-
religious order it could also survive as a concept long after the
ethnic point of origin had been wiped away.

I've noticed that some of the things that
Beowulf did early in the poem seem out of
place in the age they're set. Could some of
these actions be similar to that associated
with the Celt Gaestae?

I'm not sure if or how the Goths would fit into this.
Again, I know this is highly speculative.
Just running through some ideas,
Please, I would appreciate a critical critique.
Anyone else have thoughts on the subject?

JS Crary