Re: Urartu.

From: Joseph S Crary
Message: 8134
Date: 2001-07-28

I've followed the discussion on this topic. I think a closer look at
Herodotus account may clear up several points.


{Greek given in Latin scribt)
traditional rendering by AD Godley


[Chapter 11]
[1] esti de kai allos logos echôn hôde, tôi malista
legomenôi autos proskeimai, Skuthas tous nomadas oikeontas en
têi Asiêi, polemôi piesthentas hupo Massageteôn,
oichesthai diabantas potamon Araxên epi gên tên Kimmeriên
(tên gar nun nemontai Skuthai, hautê legetai to palaion einai
Kimmeriôn), [2] tous de Kimmerious epiontôn Skutheôn
bouleuesthai hôs stratou epiontos megalou, kai dê tas gnômas
spheôn kechôrismenas, entonous men amphoteras, ameinô de
tên tôn basileôn: tên men gar dê tou dêmou pherein
gnômên hôs apallassesthai prêgma eiê mêde pro
spodou menontas kinduneuein, tên de tôn basileôn
diamachesthai peri tês chôrês toisi epiousi. [3] oukôn
dê ethelein peithesthai oute toisi basileusi ton dêmon oute
tôi dêmôi tous basileas: tous men dê apallassesthai
bouleuesthai amachêti tên chôrên paradontas toisi
epiousi: toisi de basileusi doxai en têi heôutôn
keisthai apothanontas mêde sumpheugein tôi dêmôi,
logisamenous hosa te agatha peponthasi kai hosa pheugontas
ek tês patridos kaka epidoxa katalambanein. [4] hôs
de doxai sphi tauta, diastantas kai arithmon isous
genomenous machesthai pros allêlous. kai tous men
apothanontas pantas hup' heôutôn thapsai ton dêmon
tôn Kimmeriôn para potamon Turên (kai spheôn eti dêlos
esti ho taphos), thapsantas de houtô tên exodon ek
tês chôrês poieesthai: Skuthas de epelthontas labein
tên chôrên erêmên.

There is yet another telling, thus held [well] laid so that I
particularly relay on [it]. The Skuthas [were] nomads that occupied
Asiêi, that squeezed tight [by] war with Massageteôn, passed
across [the] river Araxên [and] into the Kimmeriên, [whom] at
this time dwelt in Skuthai, [as] this was the ancient abode of the
Kimmeriôn. Then the Kimmerious deliberated Skutheôn advance as
[their] encamped army was near, they on the one hand decided to
depart, because they were well-strung. Yet, on the other hand the
princes prevailing [against] the said choice of the nation, to undo
that which was done, [saying] not to risk being as stirred or [cast]
embers [in the wind]. Now the princes wish clashed against the land,
yet these princes of the land, [could] not persuade upon the nations
noblemen, whom in assembly had decided to withdraw without giving
fight and hand over everything. Thus, the princes decided to lay dead
rather than flee [the] land, as reckoned by the number of those with
honor to receive the blow from those that in shame [would] flee from
ancestral holdings. With this resolution, as rivals [they] tore apart
and began to fight one another. The [greater] wiped-out [the]
outnumbered and [still] honored these with funeral rites, then the
nation of the Kimmeriôn crossed the river Turên, their funeral
mounds are yet seen [there], made upon their departure to venerate
the dead. Then the Skuthas rushed in to take an empty land.

Traditional Rendering
[1] There is yet another story, to which account I myself especially
incline. It is to this effect. The nomadic Scythians inhabiting Asia,
when hard pressed in war by the Massagetae, fled across the Araxes1
river to the Cimmerian country (for the country which the Scythians
now inhabit is said to have belonged to the Cimmerians before), [2]
and the Cimmerians, at the advance of the Scythians, deliberated as
men threatened by a great force should. Opinions were divided; both
were strongly held, but that of the princes was the more honorable;
for the people believed that their part was to withdraw and that
there was no need to risk their lives for the dust of the earth; but
the princes were for fighting to defend their country against the
attackers. [3] Neither side could persuade the other, neither the
people the princes nor the princes the people; the one party planned
to depart without fighting and leave the country to their enemies,
but the princes were determined to lie dead in their own country and
not to flee with the people, for they considered how happy their
situation had been and what ills were likely to come upon them if
they fled from their native land. [4] Having made up their minds, the
princes separated into two equal bands and fought with each other
until they were all killed by each other's hands; then the Cimmerian
people buried them by the Tyras river, where their tombs are still to
be seen, and having buried them left the land; and the Scythians came
and took possession of the country left empty.

[Chapter 12]
kai nun esti men en têi Skuthikêi Kimmeria teichea, esti de
porthmêia Kimmeria, esti de kai chôrêi ounoma Kimmeriê,
esti de Bosporos Kimmerios kaleomenos: [2] phainontai de hoi
Kimmerioi pheugontes es tên Asiên tous Skuthas kai tên
chersonêson ktisantes, en têi nun Sinôpê polis Hellas
oikistai. phaneroi de eisi kai hoi Skuthai diôxantes autous kai
esbalontes es gên tên Mêdikên, hamartontes tês hodou:
[3] hoi men gar Kimmerioi aiei tên para thalassan epheugon, hoi de
Skuthai en dexiêi ton Kaukason echontes ediôkon es hou esebalon
es gên tên Mêdikên, es mesogaian tês hodou
traphthentes. houtos de allos xunos Hellênôn te kai barbarôn
legomenos logos eirêtai.

Now to this day here and there in Skuthikêi [one finds] an
earthwork, a ford, a route of retreat named Kimmeria, and a place
called the Kimmerios ox-crossing: this peninsula discovered and
settled as the Kimmerioi fled the Skuthas into Asien, and presently
here the Hellas have founded the colonial city Sinope. Its clear that
the Skuthai, in hot-pursuit flung themselves into Mediken, [their
dubious] export missing its mark: As at this point the Kimmerios
continued to flee along the sea, yet the Skuthai held Mt. Kaukason on
the right hand and in hot-pursuit fell into Mediken, into the heart
of this country their [horrid] trade congealed. Except for one other
barbarous lullaby this telling [is] the common Hellenon impression.

Traditional Rendering
Scythia still retains traces of the Cimmerians; there are Cimmerian
castles, and a Cimmerian ferry, also a tract called Cimmeria, and a
Cimmerian Bosphorus. It appears likewise that the Cimmerians, when
they fled into Asia to escape the Scyths, made a settlement in the
peninsula where the Greek city of Sinope was afterwards built. The
Scyths, it is plain, pursued them, and missing their road, poured
into Media. For the Cimmerians kept the line which led along the sea-
shore, but the Scyths in their pursuit held the Caucasus upon their
right, thus proceeding inland, and falling upon Media. This account
is one which is common both to Greeks and barbarians.

have to get now

JS Crary