[tied] Re: Satem shift

From: tgpedersen@...
Message: 8085
Date: 2001-07-24

> From: tgpedersen@...
> To: cybalist@...
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 1:02 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Satem shift
> (A) It's nice to hear that I've produced something useful. Could
that also serve as an explanation of the proposed re-centumisation of

--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> (A) I have already given my reasons for regarding satemisation as
an irreversible process. Quite apart from which, I don't see any
compelling reasons for the grouping of Germanic with Balto-Slavic (or
the Satemic cluster in general) in genetic terms. The affinities
usually cited are either North European areal traits or trivial
parallels that are too common cross-linguistically to indicate
genetic relationship. The most interesting resemblances (such as *-m-
vs. *-bH- endings and adjectival declensions) have been discussed on
this list before.

> Piotr
I believe this is part of the reasons you referred to? (correct me if
I'm wrong)

> ----- Original Message -----
But any deliberate "reversal" engineered by non-linguists is likely
to leave a residue of older forms overlooked by the "purifiers". Show
me a single example of residual satem developments in Germanic.

To which I replied that as long as the k's (etc) have not progressed
all the way to s's (etc.) they can be identified and therefore purged.

I was a bit baffled that you brought Balto-Slavic into it, as
presumed opponent. That was not in my mind. I was thinking of the
Skiri vs. the Bastarni, to which latter you ascribed the beginning of
Germanic. Those writers that mention those two tribes do not mention
any (Pre-)Slavic tribes, as far as I know. And if not those two
tribes, the opposition would probably have been to an Iranian
But mostly (as usual) I was thinking local: the typical Danish
lenition of stops (p, t, k > b, d, g > B, D, G) takes place in
precisely those areas (Denmark, Western Scania, Coastal Southern
Norway) where the influence of the Low-German speaking Hanse was the
strongest; and Low German, in those Hanse documents I've seen (14th
century) already showed High German influence (p, t, k > pf, ts, x,
etc). In other ways, at a time of political conflict, Danish and Low
German were going in separate directions.