Dutch "w" (was: Re: Slavic peoples and places)

--- In cybalist@..., Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv@...> wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:36:07 -0000, MCLSSAA2@... wrote:
>
> >--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> >> ... I believe (Dutch-speakers, please correct me if I'm wrong)

that

> >> the normative Netherlands Dutch pronunciation of <w> is [B] ...
> >
> >When I learned Dutch to be ready for a fortnight holiday

motorcycling

> >round Holland, the textbook told me to pronounce Dutch "w" with

the

> >upper lip and the lower lip and the lower front teeth all three
> >together, like saying [v] and [w] both at the same time.
> >
> >But books can be wrong; my textbook said that Dutch "ui" is

pronounced

> >[öü], but the pronunciation that I heard in Holland (mostly around
> >the IJsselmeer, but I went further south sometimes) was [aü].
>
> Pronunciations change, and textbooks are slow to pick up on them. I
> bet there are still textbooks around that describe <ie>, <uu> and

<oe>

> (/i/, /y/, /u/) as "long vowels", when in fact they are short [i],

[y]

> and [u] (except before /r/, when they become long).
>
> The diphthong spelt <ui> is usually described as [Öy], parallel to
> <ei>/<ij> = [Ei] and <au>/<ou> = [Ou]. In fact, the initial part of
> the diphtong is more open than that, more like [æi], [V"y] and [Vu].
> If I'm not mistaken, the offglide in <ui> is [y] before consonants,
> but [i]/[j] when final or before another vowel (<huis> = [hV"ys],

<ui>

> = [V"i], <uien> = [V"j@]).
>
> The whole system:
>
> <ie>, <i> [i], [i:] before /r/
> <uu>, <u> [y], [y:] before /r/
> <oe> [u], [u:] before /r/
>
> <i> [I]
> <u> [Y]
>
> <ee>, <e> [e.] > [ei], [I:] before /r/
> <eu> [ö.] > [öy], [Y:] before /r/
> <oo>, <o> [o.] > [ou], [U:] before /r/
>
> <ei>, <ij> [Ei] > [æi]
> <ui> [Öy] ~ [Öi] > [V"y] ~ [V"i]
> <au>, <ou> [Ou] > [Vu]
>
> <e> [E]
> <o> [O]
> (There used to be a distinction between /O/ in e.g. <pot> and "/ò/"
> ([U]?) in e.g. <dom>, but I've never heard it)
>
> <aa>, <a> [a.], [a:] before /r/
> <a> [A]
> (The qualities are inversed in e.g. Amsterdam: [A:] vs. [a])
>
>
> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> mcv@...

Thank you for the detailed exposition of the subject of Dutch "w".
Now I know everything about it, except, perhaps, its historical
development and whether Surinams pronounciation as "w" reflects an
original Dutch pronounciation?

Torsten