Re: [tied] Latin perfect tense

From: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
Message: 7400
Date: 2001-05-26

On Wed, 23 May 2001 20:36:44 +0100, "petegray"
<petegray@...> wrote:

>> Also noteworthy is the element *w(e) that appears in the "weak"
>> perfects (such as most a:-conjugation verbs).
>>.....Now, apart from the pf.ind., the rest of the
>> perfect paradigm in Latin seems to be based on the verb "to be"
>> together with a a worn-down form of the in *-us-/*-wos-:
>This origin for the -v- in some Latin perfects is disputed in some quarters,
>and in my opinion should be offerred with a note of caution.

Yes, I think I offered such a note.

>The -v- only
>occurs on stems that cannot take -s- or do not take reduplication. In
>consonant conjugation verbs (3rd conjugation) it is an almost invariable
>sign that the the PIE stem ended in a laryngeal (e.g. vomo vomui, colo
>colui, gemo gemui, etc)
>There are several suggested sources for it:
> (a) the Proto-Italic perfect paradigm of the root *bhuh (forms in Oscan
>derive from *fufuv- + aorist endings). The forms in fuv- were then
>reinterpreted as fu-, plus the endings -vai, -vei, ve:ri etc

But there is no -v- in fui:, fuisti: ...

> (b) the perfect active participle (as above, and based on Rix's
>suggestion.) The -is- extension can then be taken back to a feminine -i-
>form. But some people suggest the -is- is not -is at all. the 2 sing and
>plural are really -(i) st- cognate with Greek -stha, Hittite -sta (hi
>conjugation), the -(i)- is purely epenthetic.

In Greek oistha, the -s- is from *d (*woid-th2a).

In Hittite, 2/3sg. (hi-conj.) -sta is a later form, a kind of
amalgamation of 2sg. -s (mi-conjugation) with 2sg. -ta
(hi-conjugation) and 3sg. -t (mi-conjugation) with 3sg. -s

There's also Tocharian 2sg. -sta (< *-s-th2a), 2pl. -s(o) (< *-ste ?).

> (c) co-occurrence of two laryngeals in the 1st person singular (which
>explains its occurence on laryngeal roots)

But how does one get *w from a laryngeal other than *h3? In Sanskrit,
we have -u in the 1st/2nd. p. singular, persumably from *-h3, and then
by analogy from other laryngeals. Something similar may lie behind
the consonant stem perfects in -ui you mention, but as an explanation
for the Latin v-perfect in general, I just find the chain of analogies
too weak.

> (d) Baldi points to a handful of -v- perfects in Umbrian, Gaulish,
>Armenian, tocharian, and possibly Hittite. This implies it has a PIE
>origin other than the participle.

I'd have to know the details (does he refer to the Toch. 1p. sg. in
-wa?). The has a PIE origin, and it's not unlikely that
it was used to make periphrastic verbal forms in languages other than
Latin (esp. Umbrian, of course).

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal