Re: *PerkWnos' associations to underworld - Will the battle ever en

--- In cybalist@..., "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...> wrote:

>
> So begins an academic whipping by Omar on IE mythology:
> >I have some points regarding your theory of realms (if you may
>apologize
> >me for my bad English :-))
>
> My, I think I'm in trouble. By all means...
>
> >1.- Warriors
> > According to which IE myths can you affirm that the

Underworld >is

> >associated with the warrior function and in which way?
>
> Well, I assume we can agree that IE myth is tripartitive in nature,

that is,

> divided into three parts? There are many examples, illustrating

Dumezil's

> concept of tripartition so I won't get into the details. Basically,

one can

> see the existence of three functions in all IE myths:
>
> 1) magic-law
> 2) chthonic fertility
> 3) war-hunting
>
> So we have three castes (classes of people within IE society) that

look

> after the three roles:
>
> 1) priests, chiefs
> 2) gatherers, herders, farmers
> 3) warriors, hunters
>
> It doesn't take much to realize that the three functions must

surely be

> associated with the three realms, each associated with two male

deities (one

> ruler of the domain, the other the domain itself). Each ruler of

the domain

> is given a consort while the deities representing the realms seem

to be

> treated as inanimate and consort-less. The three realms are sky,

earth and

> underworld. Just common sense so far.
>
> The earth goes with chthonic fertility hands down, controlled by

*Manus

> (man, ruler of the earthly domain) and *Yemos (fertility, earthly

realm),

> the Horse Twins. The connections between fertility and the earthly

realm are

> too bluntly apparent to ramble on about. Agreed?
>
> Now again, magical knowledge and law clearly go with the sky, and

is given

> to *Dye:us (law) and *Wextnos (magical knowledge & overworld

realm). For the

> most part, Thor and Odin are in charge of these ideas in Norse

mythos and...

> they live in the sky. Enough said.
>
> This leaves war and hunting with the underworld but this would

imply

> strongly that this is the domain of *Nepo:t (waters of the

underworld) and

> *PerkWnos (war). Now surely *Nepo:t, being the watery realm, has an
> automatic connection with the underworld, being a watery place (cf.

Styx,

> for instance) so I won't say more on that. This leaves only

*PerkWnos, the

> god of war and storm, to connect securely as the leader of the

underworld.

>
> Now the following site, while speaking of that icky "neopaganism"

stuff, has

> good insights about IE culture regardless.
>
> http://www.neopagan.net/IE_Cosmology.HTML
>
> It states sobrely: "Parallels often existed between the functions
> and the 'Three Worlds:' clergy were associated with the Sky,
> warriors with the Waters, and producers with the Land. Fire was
> viewed as extremely sacred and existed in all Three Worlds (caste-

wise, it

> was associated with the kingship which affects all other castes)."
>
> This is a very appropriate assessment of IE mythology and it serves

as a

> good structure. Afterall, every religion or mythology has a

structure of

> some kind. IE's is clearly tripartitive.
>
> So, we can at least agree that there was a figure (whom I call

*PerkWnos)

> that served as the god of war and storm, yes? If so, the connection

between

> war and the underworld is very obvious. Let me outline this out in

my own

> querky way. War causes casualties, no? It causes death. If it

didn't cause

> death, we wouldn't call it "war". We would call it a "spat", or a
> "disagreement", or a "bad day at work". While spats, disagreements

and bad

> days at work can cause mental anguish, possibly even requiring the

need for

> years of intense therapy, war usually causes lots of bloody death.

Hence the

> underworld and warrior connection with red: the colour of blood,

the colour

> of dying leaves in autumn, etc.
>
> So where do you think the dead might have gone in the world of the

IE? Well,

> obviously, the dead could either be cremated or buried. However,

since most

> people equate the Kurgan cultures with the IE, it would seem that

the burial

> method is our soup du jour. Burial invariably involves taking a

shovel or

> some sharp object and digging into the earth to form a large hole

in order

> to place the dead, or maybe one might want to pile the earth on top

of the

> dead and avoid the whole hole-in-the-ground thing out of respect

for Mother

> Earth. Whatever. Either way, the total effect is that the dead are

placed

> "below the earth". Another cute term for "below the earth"

is "underworld".

>
> Hence, I think we can all understand now that the IE pictured the

dead as

> "living in the underworld", both literally and poetically. There

are many IE

> myths to prove this (Hades, Hel, yadayadayada...). Ares, the Greek

god of

> war, is associated with the dog, the animal that protects the

entrance to

> the underworld in common IE myth. He is also connected with many,

many, many

> gods and goddesses pertaining to the underworld and death (the

Keres,

> Phobos, Deimos, yadayadayada...). Then there's Aeropus who was

breastfed by

> her dead mother Aerope. How? With Ares help, of course. Gee, that

looks like

> a war/death/underworld connection...
>
> Also, the connection between war and weapons provides a link as

well. It's

> funny how fashioning spears, hammers, clubs and slingshots goes so

well with

> the theme of war. Don't you think so? Yet, weapon-fashioning is

always tied

> in with the underworld (Etruscan-Roman Vulcan & Greek Hephaistos,

the war

> and weapon-making god Tyr getting his hand bitten off by the

hellhound

> Fenris, yadayadayada...)
>
> > I admit that the hero has to go to the Underworld to get some
> >knowledge or skill specifically related to his warrior function,

but

> >it doesn't happen always. Sometimes his descent has nothing to do
>with
> >fighting but knowledge (Odysseus) or adventures (Theseus, in >this

case not

> >very suitable for a renowned warrior).
>
> Does the myths of Odysseus or Theseus firmly relate to other IE

myths or has

> the objective of these myths been altered? Regardless, there isn't

a direct

> one-to-one connection between the Hero and the storm god. That is,

the IE

> Hero surely has more than one dilemma to overcome, requiring the

help of

> more than one type of god. The original tale probably involved

three trials

> (one for each realm/function) since three is obviously associated

with these

> myths (cf. three-headed serpent). We later find as much as twelve

labours in

> the myths of Heracles (multiplied by four).
>
> The Hero god, known as *Manus, also the first man, is known at some

point to

> obtain the help from a certain war god to combat the serpent who

has stolen

> his cattle. The serpent is of the _underworld_ domain and who

better than an

> underworld god to help *Manus combat it. But who does he ask for

help in the

> Indic traditions? Why, it's the warrior god, Indra! Imagine that!

The

> serpent is slain and creates rivers (again, rivers being connected

to the

> watery underworld).
>
> >2.- Colours
> > Red colour seems to be more appropriate for living beings.

Roman

> >generals in triumph had artificial coloured cheeks, and I remember
> >having read that some buried skeletons (I haven't the source,
> > >unfortunately, so perhaps I am wrong) had painted bones, in red,

of

> > >course.
>
> Red associated with generals in triumph only reaffirms

the "red=war"

> equation. The red ochre is a very ancient tradition but I might

offer a

> possible IE interpretation of it. As I have stated, red is the

colour of not

> only war and the warrior function but of the underworld realm, the

land of

> the dead. (Light colours like cyan, yellow and white involve the

overworld;

> Dark colours like blue and green, the earth.)
>
> > > So in the underworld, *PerkWnos is in charge, the god of war and
> > > storms.
> >
> >But storms are originated in the sky. The Underworld may explain
> >earthquakes or floods, but storms?
>
> Yes it can. A battle in the sky between the offensive underworld

deities led

> by *PerkWnos (warrior function) and the defensive overworld led by

*Dye:us

> (priest function). The clang of weapons causes lightning and the

roar of the

> gods causes thunder.
>
> >>The wife of *PerkWnos is the beautiful *Xste:r (Venus), goddess

of >>love.

> >
> >I can't swear that all Underworld goddesses are ugly, but beauty
>suits
> >better to Overworld deities,
>
> Not at all. The underworld was not "evil" as in the Christian

sense. Both

> good _and_ evil deities could exist in either the overworld or the
> underworld. Ugliness has nothing to do with anything. Besides, in

Egyptian

> myth, Isis is clearly depicted as a beautiful young woman and yet,

she hangs

> around Osiris, the god of death and the underworld. You're tres

wrongo

> there.
>
> > I think that Underworld deities are the product of a higher
> >developed thought. The Greek Underworld according to the Iliad, for
> >example, is very simple and bothering, and the Iliad is a
>comparatively
> >young work, so probably the IE believing was not so >much

elaborated

> >either.
>
> You can't understand IE myth without envisioning an underworld. If

I am to

> take it that you imply "more complex civilisations" such as our

own, then

> the concept of an underworld is not the product of this "higher

thought" at

> all. The Greek schemes of underworld were not simplistic. It seems

they had

> some fairly established ideas about what existed within it and who

was

> domain over it. The Norse views of the cosmos and the underworld

aren't

> underdeveloped either. Nor those of Indo-Iranian religions.
>
> Common IE myth appears to have at least a ferocious dog (a semi-

tamed wolf)

> protecting the underworld who is owned by *Yemos, the earth. The

wolf was

> probably offered to *Yemos by *Manus as part of his third and last

Herculean

> labour. The IE underworld is definitely watery, not firey as in

Christian

> tradition. The watery underworld is deified and known as *Xepom-

Nepo:t

> (Neptune, Nechtain, Apam Napat, etc) "Grandson of the Deeps", a

concept

> seperate from the larger great expanse, the primordial waters (or

the Deeps)

> from which all of creation was born. Already, we can see that the

IE myth

> must have been fairly developed well before Hellenic, Italic,

Germanic and

> Indo-Iranian mythologies were ever written.
>
> - gLeN
>
>

From good old britannica:

Bel

(Akkadian), Sumerian Enlil, Mesopotamian god of the atmosphere and a
member of the triad of gods completed by Anu (Sumerian: An) and Ea
(Enki). Enlil meant Lord Wind: both the hurricane and the gentle
winds of spring were thought of as the breath issuing from his mouth,
and eventually as his word or command. He was sometimes called Lord
of the Air.

Although An was the highest god in the Sumerian pantheon, Enlil had a
more important role: he embodied energy and force but not authority.
Enlil's cult centre was Nippur. Enlil was also the god of
agriculture: the Myth of the Creation of the Hoe describes how he
separated heaven and earth to make room for seeds to grow. He then
invented the hoe and broke the hard crust of earth; men sprang forth
from the hole. Another myth relates Enlil's rape of his consort
Ninlil (Akkadian: Belit), a grain goddess, and his subsequent
banishment to the underworld. This myth reflects the agricultural
cycle of fertilization, ripening, and winter inactivity.

The name of his Akkadian counterpart, Bel, is derived from the
Semitic word baal, or "lord." Bel had all the attributes of Enlil,
and his status and cult were much the same. Bel, however, gradually
came to be thought of as the god of order and destiny. In Greek
writings references to Bel indicate this Babylonian deity and not the
Syrian god of Palmyra of the same name.

(end)

When investigating Etruscan /vel/: Hope this might be interesting.

Regards

Morten

>

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