Re: Etruscan and Anatolian(Tanism/Velchans etc.)

--- In cybalist@..., "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...> wrote:

>
> Mr Caws:
> > I don't think Veles/Veltha/Vala is a storm deity, though. I see
> >this deity as a god of natural power, death, the otherworld,

cattle,

> >the forest.
>
> Yes, the otherworld, or more specifically, the under-world. Here's

how it

> works. It's very simple: *Dye:us is the sky figure associated with

the

> priestly function and the overworld. Then there are chthonic

deities, those

> associated with the earth or middleworld, the Divine Twins *Manus

(the first

> man) or his brother *Yemos (the earth), who are both associated

with the

> commoner function (farmer-herder function). Finally, *PerkWnos

(equatable

> the most to our "Vel" deities) is the leader of the underworld

associated

> with the warrior function. The IE cosmos is thus arranged very

tightly

> according to tripartition, each realm coming automatically with a

set of

> identifiable symbolisms. Along with the above realm associations,

there are

> other connections as with colour (light=overworld, red=underworld,
> dark=earth), season (winter=overworld, fall=underworld,

spring/summer=earth)

> and general type of animal (birds=overworld,

serpents/fish=underworld,

> mammals=earth). Here's a nifty diagram:
>
> societal ruling realm
> colour animal function deity deity
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> overworld light bird priest *Dye:us *Wextnos
> earth dark mammal commoner *Manus *Yemos
> underworld red serpent warrior *PerkWnos *Nepo:t
>
> So in the underworld, *PerkWnos is in charge, the god of war and

storms. His

> season is autumn. I couldn't fit this into the diagram but there is

also a

> "material" or "medium" association (air=underworld,

earth=middleworld,

> water=underworld) and so that makes *Nepo:t, the god of water, the
> underworld realm itself, equivalent to Norse Hel. The wife of

*PerkWnos is

> the beautiful *Xste:r (Venus), goddess of love. It's interesting to

note

> that the love/war opposition in the underworld is matched by the

law/justice

> opposition in the overworld with *Dye:us and *GWo:us (Cow Mother),
> strengthening the priest-warrior opposition (cf. priesthood and

rulership

> are closely linked in IE society, btw)

Woah. That's pretty complete. I'd like to investigate this in depth,
so I'll keep quiet about it for now.

> Now, underworld deities are easily made into chthonic deities since

the

> ground and the underworld are in the same direction - down. The

association

> of the earth (as well as the underworld) with death is readily

associable by

> the typical IE act of burial. The act of burying the dead brings

them closer

> to their journey to the underworld, in a manner of speaking. The

association

> of cattle is due to the animal symbolism concerning the middleworld

and

> mammals, usually hooved animals like deer, horses or cattle but

also bears.

> This animal association stems back to pre-neolithic European times.

The use

> of "horns" is a very early symbolic outcrop of this chthonic

imagery but the

> presence of snakes in religious imagery in Europe are also

indicative of

> underworld connections (ignoring the later Christian re-

interpretations of

> snakes as purely evil things).
>
> Veles' (and Volos') association with autumn is a strong indication

that

> there are underlying underworld connections alongside chthonic

ones. If he

> were entirely chthonic he would be associated with spring, n'est-ce

pas. His

> connection with wolves is another indication since the wolf is

traditionally

> associated with the moon (cf. werewolf) as well as criminality and

both are

> underworld symbolisms. The moon is also connected with the autumn

and winter

> seasons in European cultures because of the night being longer and

therefore

> the moon more prominent in the sky. Finally, the fact that Veles

evidently

> takes over the role of the three-headed cattle-stealing _serpent_

of

> traditional IE mythology (as in Indic traditions) shows even more

that this

> deity has underworld overtones (cf. serpent=underworld).
>
> > I have found several instances of this deity stealing the

Thunder

> >god's cattle. Slavic Veles stole Perun's cattle, Baltic Vels stole
> >Percunas' cattle, Indo-Iranian Vala stole Indra's cattle.
>
> Hmm, perhaps there is some mythological interference then between a

name for

> the 3-headed serpent (something like *Welos?) who steals *Manus'

cattle and

> the one for the warrior underworld deity *PerkWnos who helps *Manus

recover

> said cattle? Both entities belong to the underworld, the serpent

monster

> being malevolent, the warrior god being benevolent.

I agree generally. I associate the warrior god specifically with
thunder more than the underworld, though. I do think the two are
definetly linked by their mutual opposition. The serpent monster is
certainly malevolent in many ways, but I think he is more ambiguous
as natural death god, associated with sorcery and wisdom in addition
to general evilness.

> > If Velchans is related to this Vel divinity, then I think the
> >connection must lie elsewhere. One of Velchans' prinmary attributes
> >was metalworking. Ore is taken from within the mountain,
> >traditionally the land of the dead in many mythos.
>
> Yes, the land of the dead... but since the dead were buried under

the earth,

> that "land" was located in the _underworld_. *PerkWnos (and the

resulting

> Velchans) was an underworld god. A great mountain had the function

of

> holding up the sky in some southern traditions (eg: Greek Mount

Olympus) but

> the original IE world view would be one where a great tree held up

the sky.

> Both the tree and the mountain (as well as pillar, double-axe or

pin in

> other traditions) also served as a supernatural medium for

travelling from

> this world to the next (to both overworld _and_ underworld

depending on

> which direction you plan on going, up or down). Thus the mountain
> association involved the idea that Velchans guarded the gateway to

the

> underworld. The original associations with war led to a late

connection with

> metalworking since warriors like nice shiney double-axes and the

like. As

> the *PerkWnos myths travelled westward, the much later bonus

connection with

> firey vulcanoes (fire mountains, as it were) would further specify

Velchans

> home in vulcanoes rather than an originally vague direction

of "under the

> earth".

I agree. I didn't mean to imply that the mountain connection excluded
a link down to the underworld. I found a site that listed another
metalworking deity with a "vel" involved-Baltic Teliavelis. The
author also drew the connection between Perkunas and Baal, I believe.
It's a pretty nifty site.

ausis.gf.vu.lt/eka/mythology/telmyth.html
______________________________________________________________________
___

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

http://www.hotmail.com