Re: [tied] Greenberg and Nostratic

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 6366
Date: 2001-03-05

Glen,
 
One of the things that may happen in convergence areas is "cumulative creolisation", where diffusion taking place over the millennia simply drowns the detectable genetic signal in the long run, so that secondary (areal) affinities replace family features. This is what Dixon argues for Pama-Nyungan and for the Australian languages in general, if you need a present-day example. This is not "a wild possibility" but something that happens every now and then. I'm pretty sure, for example, that the alleged close relation between Germanic and Balto-Slavic which makes some linguists propose a Germano-Balto-Slavic genetic unit or claim that Germanic is a secondarily "desatemised" language, is in fact a purely areal phenomenon. As a matter of fact, we don't see neat family trees very often -- the model works best in cases like Polynesia, where there is a natural barrier between any pair of languages. Just consider Germanic, Slavic or Romance, and the way divergence and convergence have operated in those microfamilies. What does the abstract entity we call Modern German derive from? Which "continental" element (Anglian, Saxon, Jutish?) predominates in English? Handbook classifications favour binary or tripartite divisions, so that we get taxonomic figments like West Germanic, East Germanic, or South Slavic. I completely agree with Ed that excessive concentration on genetic taxonomies gives us a false picture of linguistic evolution.
 
Piotr
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Glen Gordon
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 4:19 PM
Subject: [tied] Greenberg and Nostratic

>[Ed:] In addition, over-concentration on the genetic side of things also gives a false picture because it is never all that is going on. Creoles never happened in ancient history then?

[Glen:] Hmm, seems unlikely if you're talking about "creole" in a non-layman sense. I would have thought that you need some precise conditions for this to occur, like, say, mass-slavery of indigenous populations or colonial expansion. Hmm... I don't know of any hunter-gatherer societies that fit this bill :) Usually, a language is predominantly comprised of features of one language group with the usual [ad/sub/ca/pro]-strate influences and so I don't see this creole arguement as a serious one that needs to be addressed.

>It may also well be that Dixon's model applies to IE's relationship with its nearest 'relatives' because of the relatively greater social equilibrium of the historical period in question.

No need stressing out over every wild possibility. It's more logically economical to presume that everything worked the same in the past as it does now.