Re: [tied] Albanian connection

Dear Alvin,

It's great to have an Albanian among us. No data is more valuable in linguistics than first-hand information about a language provided by a native speaker.

I was actually one of those people who questioned the Illyrian roots of the Albanian language. I know very well that such an opinion is not going to endear me to Albanians, but popularity matters in politics and entertainment, not in science. You must understand that by denying a close genetic connection between Illyrian and Albanian I mean no disrespect to anybody. My only agenda here is linguistic. Whatever their closest cousins, Geg and Tosk constitute a unique relict branch of IE, and Albanian studies are a very important part of IE linguistics (ask Eric Hamp).

Historical linguistics establishes linguistic relationships on the basis of regular correspondences between languages. It takes a lot of hard work to group languages together on the basis of their reconstructed common and individual histories. An opinion based on the superficial similarity of a few arbitrarily chosen words will almost certainly be wrong. Your attempt to compare <Illyrian> with words like <lirë> or <yll>, is like groping in the dark at random. It so happens that similar words are not necessarily related, and related words are not necessarily similar. Illyrian was spoken more than 2000 years ago, and disappeared almost without a trace. To compare it directly with modern Albanian only in order to glean a few eye-catching resemblances is a methodological error. Albanian itself has undergone a number of radical changes since the antiquity (it is enough to reflect to what extent Latin loanwords in Albanian have been affected, e.g. mjek < medicu-, or prind < parente-).

Before you compare an Albanian word with anything outside Albanian, you should first examine its history and learn what it looked like in the past. The "star" word <(h)yll>, for example, derives ultimately from PIE *sh2ul- 'sun'; the reconstructed older stages of its development do not resemble <Illyr-> at all (quite apart from the question why the Illyrians should have called themselves the Starry or Sunny Folk).

Again, you compare <thotë> with the "matching" <Thoth>, <Teuta> and <thought>, but in doing so you ignore the history of the languages in question and the structure of the words. English <th-> (= Germanic *T) goes back to PIE *t-, but Albanian <th-> reflects PIE *k^-. The protoform of <thotë> is reconstructed as *k^e:s-ti -- not even remotely similar to <Thoth> etc. English <thought> is derived from the Germanic root *Tank- (thought < OE (ge-)To:ht < *Tanx-t- = *Tank- + -T-). The element Teut- in Illyrian names is no doubt related to northern IE *teut-(a:) 'people'. Therefore, the second -t- belongs to a verb inflection in <thotë>, to a noun-forming suffix in <thought>, and to the root in <teut-> -- in other words, it's a different -t- in each case. Naturally, Thoth's Egyptian name has absolutely nothing to do with any of the above.

I have no idea what the correct etymology of "Illyrian" is, because almost nothing is known about the Illyrian language(s) in general. Ancient tradition had it that the Messapic language, spoken in the Salento Peninsula until the 1st c. BC and known from several inscriptions, was a dialect of Illyrian. Messapic is not a member of the Italic branch, and according to ancient authors the Messapians were one of several adjacent ethnic groups that had migrated into Italy from Dalmatia and were all "Illyrian". But Messapic bears no special affinity to Albanian in terms of linguistic traits. If you check my earlier postings on the position of Albanian (a peripheral Satem language) within the IE family, you'll see why I am inclined to believe that Proto-Albanian speakers arrived from the northeast, settling in an area where Illyrian had been spoken several centuries earlier.

Piotr

----- Original Message -----
From: Alvin Ekmekciu

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 2:05 PM

Subject: [tied] Albanian connection

Hello everybody ! Being an Albanian concerned on the question of the origins of our people, through searching the web I found your Forum which appears interesting to me. You would have to excuse me because I am not a linguist therefore somebody might become bored of what I will writte. Reading some posts of this forum wakes a lot of questions in me and at the same time teases my thoughts. Some of the posts suggest that the origin of Albanian is not to be found in Illyrians. It is written "Illyrian" comes from "water". Does it mean the Illirians were the people which came from the water (sea) ? By boats. Does it have any connection whith the "people of water" in the old Egypt ? Does the period of the appearing of illirians correspond to the perios of the appearing of "people of water" in Egypt ? Have you taken in consideration the suggestions that "Illyrian" might mean "free people", "i lirë" (alb.) or even has to do with the "star", "yll" (alb.) ? Anyway, if the Illyrians were the people of the water (which came from the sea), then something has to be sure, they didn´t call themselves Illyrians, that was the name people who saw them coming from the water gave them (probably pellasgs), therefore just because the Albanian "ujë" is not found in "Illyrian" doesn´t mean that Illyrians have nothing to do with Albanians. Do the Greeks call themselves Greeks ?? Do Albanians call themselves Albanians ? Did Illyrians call themselves Illyrians ? I think what many linguists have already said and done, the Illyrian-Albanian connection has to be found in Greek Mythology. Indeed you can find there many elements which you can hardly give a logical explanation in Greek or any other language but Albanian. Bringing forward the experience, a word, somebody´s word, Gods word, might have been what the ancient people mostly occupied their time, therefore the word which meant "to speak", "to tell", "to bring forward somebody´s words", "message" might have been very important, and very common used. In Albanian we have one word which has inside all words and meaning mentioned above. That is "të thuash"(tosc, dial.), "me thanë" (geg, dial.). Below you will find some forms in which the word occurs in Albanian: Them, thënë, thenë - tosc dialect. Tham, thanë, than´ - geg dialect Thua, thuaj, the, thotë, thot´, tha, - both dialects The Italian linguist Giovanni Catapano thinks that there is a strong connection between Albanian ancestors and "people from the water" which appeared in anscient Egypt. Thoth or Tehuti is said to be one of them. He is known to have a head of eagle and to have been a messanger of the God. He was bringing forward the Gods word, telling to the people what God was telling him. "God says.. to do this.." = "Zoti thotë.. " (alb.) "What does God say ? " = "Çfarë thotë Zoti ?" Thotëh, thot-hë, thot-h are forms or the Old Albanian of the same word we are talking about. So Thoth thot´h (brings forward) God´s word. If you have to bring forward somebody´s words you would have to mention all the time the word "thot´h" (tells, says), and there no wonder if people call you by your profession, Thoth. I see a connection between Albanian "thotë" and English "thought", German "Danke". I don´t remember this form being used in Italian. Now Thoth, Thoti or Tehuti (probably Theuti) is a male. If he was a female he would probably being called Tehuta (Thehuta). We know that Teuta was an Illyrian Queen whose Kingdom had Scuttari (Shkodër, present Albania) as capital. A Queen or King would always be a kind of God, or a God´s messanger, she (he) has to make decisions in God´s name, has to say that this was the will of the God. "The, them, thotë". Therefore probably Teuta was playing a similar role - God´s messanger - as Tehuti. The phrase "është e thënë" (tosc) = "it is said (God has decided so)" is very in common use among old Albanians. In Geg you say "ásht´ thán´" or "a´ than´" If you use this phrase very often you pronounce it as one word "athan".. "atha:n". Some forms: E thënë, e thenë, áshtë thanë, asht´ thán´, a´ than´. Athene is known as the Greek God of Speech = "e thënë" (alb.) Not unlike Thoth. So we have Thoth (Tehuti), Teuta, Athene connected by an almost logical order through Albanian. Some other phrases: "me të thënë me të bërë" (tosc), "me t´thanme me t´bame" (geg) ~ "if it said (by God) it would happen", "if it said we would do it". "Ashtu qe e thënë" (tosc), "ashtu pat´ ken´ e thán´" ~ "God had decided so". I would read your opinions with pleasure. Regards Alvin Ekmekciu alvi@...