Re: [tied] Apple is to Orange as Etruscan is to NEC

In a message dated 01/03/01 09:50:08 GMT Standard Time,
glengordon01@... writes:

> Only one problem. Etruscan is in no way related to NorthEast Caucasian and
> this view is not supported by most linguists (or books at your local
> library). This dying theory has been entertained by the lunatic fringe

with

> no success of winning the hearts of the mainstream because it entirely

lacks

> proof. I know about Nakh grammar and I know about Etruscan grammar. They

are

> totally different languages without any grammatical, phonological or
> vocabulary similarities whatsoever. With such low criteria, one may as

well

> relate Etruscan to Nama and Aleutian too. Your method is kind of like
> filling in the blanks of a crossword puzzle randomly until complete and
> deriving satisfaction from it for a job well done. I derive satisfaction
> from finding the truth no matter how violently it may burst my linguistic
> bubble.

Just to clarify my approach: I am NOT asserting a genetic relationship
between Nakh and Etruscan. I do not believe one exists. I also believe
that the 'lunatic fringe' who have asserted such a relationship in the
past by trying to include them in some sort of macro family have
actually served to obscure what may actually be going on. I am talking
about substrates. I am talking about non-genetic inheritances. I am
also aware that at this level it may all amount to nothing more than a
bunch of coincidences. But there are grammatical as well as lexical
resemblances too.

> >Tin, Etruscan for Zeus and 'day', reminiscent of Nakh den 'day'.
>
> ...And it doesn't occur to you that the Russian word for day is /den'/? In
> fact, this is a common form for all BaltoSlavic languages. BaltoSlavic
> languages are related to the IndoIranian languages where Sanskrit "day" is
> /dina/. Why, surely Nakh, lying so close to Russian could in no way obtain
> loans from it, right?! I invite you to eat my wrathful irony. Close, but

no

> cigar, kid. Here's a link for ya:
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/vt/kuzy/1dictionary.html

I'll allow you Indo-Iranian. Nakh is full of all sorts of stuff,
including Indo-Iranian, Arabic, Turkish, and Georgian. But mostly,
IMO, it's full of Daghestanian, which is hardly surprising. It's now
full of Russian too, but this is a recent phenomenon. All in all it is
extremely difficult to work out what is native Nakh and what isn't.
But if Nakh den was borrowed from Russian it would probably be dieni
and I think they probably had a well established word for 'day'
before the Russians started influencing the language in the 17th
century.

And thank you, but I already have several quite substantial Russian
dictionaries, and a degree in Russian, and a smattering of some other
Balto-Slavic languages, so I am quite capable of recognising what
might be a loan from Russian.

> Next time you find Nakh connections, be kind to the List and do your
> homework by screening the words through Russian to make sure they aren't
> loans from the IndoEuropean family, the family that Etruscan is SERIOUSLY
> connected with. You might also want to read competent works on Etruscan

and

> its origins. These books will typically mention a possible IE relationship
> and will mock the pitiful attempts at relating it to NEC. Have you checked
> out some books from Massimo Pallotino (I hope I spelled his name right...
> Crazy Italian names!...)

It's Pallottino (with two T's) actually. Funnily enough, Nakh has
phonemic consonant length and vowel length too, just like Italian, in
fact. What most of 'these books' do, in fact, is suggest that Etruscan
is an isolate. And while Etruscan is absolutely full of IE loanwords,
the problem is the core vocabulary just doesn't fit. In my opinion
Etruscan originated in Anatolia. It was probably a bit of a mixture
even by the time they left there, thoroughly contaminated by IE
Anatolian languages, and Hurrian, Hattic, Semitic and who knows what
else. Then it was inundated with Greek and Italic words too, during
the journey and during the several hundred years they lived in Italy
before they started writing.

BTW, isn't this just a little bit pot calling the kettle black? You
assert that there is a genetic relationship between Basque and NEC,
yet all experts in Basque reject this theory absolutely.


Ed. Robertson