Piotr wrote:
> a full chain of historically attested forms from OE <hlæfdige>
> via ME <hlavedi3e>, <lhavedie>, <lavedi> down to <lady>, with
> all the intermediate links accounted for by English sound changes,
> means nothing to Mr Cohen.
> Nor does it matter, I suppose, that the word for "lord" is a
> parallel compound derived from hla:f + weard 'bread-guardian'
> via froms such as <hlaford>, <hlaferd>, <lhoverd>, <loverd>, <lord>.
All you have demonstrated [to me] is that *if* the words for
loaf-kneader and bread-guardian had followed standard English
sound changes they would now sound somewhat like "lady" and "lord".
You certainly have *not* convinced me that the (semantic) meaning
of bread-maker/guard improved over time (gradually or otherwise)
to become the modern "lady" and "lord", much less Lady and Lord.
At some point in time, English acquired/borrowed homonyms for
bread-maker/guard that had the approximate meanings that lady
and lord now have. I already provided a plausible derivation
for "lady". Let's try one for "lord".
If you told me that people who call themselves "Lord" had
(with some arrogance ?) appropriated a title that had previously
applied to an object of worship, I would believe you. Perhaps the
most obvious source is:
Lar (lär) n. pl. <Lar-es>(lâr'eez, lay'reez) for 1 <lars> for 2
any of a class of ancient Roman tutelary deities, associated esp.
with the hearth or household.
But if this term *must* be traced back to pre-Christian times,
try a Duridic precursor of wizard for the "weard".
"Bread-guard" to "lord" may have been proposed by the same
etymologists who claim that "cabal" is derived from Hebrew
Kabbalah, as in "Cabalistically yours,". Of course it isn't.
"Cabal" = small secret group of plotters is derived from
Hebrew het-yod-bet-lamed XiBa:L = plot, device; concoct,
scheme, harm. It is related to the modern Hebrew word
M'XaBLiM = terrorists.
By the same token, "sabotage" is not derived from OF sabot
= an old shoe. It is derived from Hebrew SHaBaT = the
sabbath. Originally, to sabotage meant to go on strike,
that is, to treat a normal working day as if it were the
Sabbath.
Likewise, "muscle" is not derived from L musculus =
little mouse. It is related to words for mass/weight
and massage. Try Hebrew MiSHKaL = weight. If you have
big muscles, you can lift/pull a lot of weight. If
you lift weights, you will develop muscles. The only
connection with a little mouse is: a little mouse
has little muscles. :-)
Those who derive muscle from mouse sometimes cite the Modern
Greek pontiki, which means both muscle and mouse. But pontiki
= mouse is from AncGreek "pontikos mus" = mouse from the Pontus.
The noun fell off and the adjective took its place. Pontus
is a body-part on an anthropomorphic map, exactly where the
biceps should be in the "arm" that was Anatolia.
Izzy thinks pontiki = muscle is cognate with L pont- (s. of pons)
= bridge [because a muscle stretches/contracts from one bone
to another] influenced by Latin ponderare = to ponder, weigh;
akin to pendere = to be suspended, hang. Again, one sees some
connection between muscle and "weight". The second part of
pontiki = muscle may be related to taxis, the (re)positioning
of a body part by manipulation [< NL < Gk táxis < tag-, base of
tássein = to arrange, put in order], since this is what muscles do.
The standard etymologies for cabal, muscle and sabotage are, perhaps,
the best known English etymologies by the man-in-the-street. And all
three of them are wrong. Sometimes "a full chain of historically
attested forms" have to be taken with a grain of salt.
I scanned your list of my plausible name-sakes. I have
never used any of those names. The name on my birth
certificate is Irving, but my Hebrew name has always
been Israel and my English name was changed from
Irving to Israel by the Israeli Ministry of Interior,
then by the US Embassy in Tel Aviv, and finally by
the Florida Supreme Court. [So far, the US Supreme
Court has not overturned that decision. :-)]
Best regards,
Israel Cohen
izzy_cohen@...
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 15:24:04 +0100
From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <
gpiotr@...>
Subject: Re: Metathetic Power
Of course the fact that we have a full chain of historically attested forms
from OE <hlæfdige> via ME <hlavedi3e>, <lhavedie>, <lavedi> down to <lady>,
with all the intermediate links accounted for by English sound changes,
means nothing to Mr Cohen. Nor does it matter, I suppose, that the word for
"lord" is a parallel compound derived from hla:f + weard 'bread-guardian'
via froms such as <hlaford>, <hlaferd>, <lhoverd>, <loverd>, <lord>. I
promised some time ago not to react to IC's postings, but I'll break my word
just this once to share the following suspicion with you: I don't believe
Israel Cohen is the person he purports to be. To suppose he is would be too
simple, too unmetathetic. It would be somewhere on a continuum between
ridiculous and ludicrous. Just take the letters of his name, jumble them up
and see how many other people he may plausibly be (I will include the vowels
to make the process more constrained):
< 23 names reluctlantly snipped >
Cabalistically yours,
Piotr
----- Original Message -----
From: Cohen, Izzy
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 7:47 AM
Subject: [tied] mother vs lady
<snip>
I would relate "lady" to Semitic lamed-dalet-heh La:DaH =
birth, childbirth. In this sense, a lady is a woman
who has previously given birth. So she is usually a mother.
For the semantic sense, compare -parous [< L -parus =
bearing, der. of parere = to bear, bring forth; see - OUS].
She has carried/delivered a "load". Now she is a lady.
The child she bore is called a YeLeD [in Hebrew].
child
[bef. 950; ME; OE cild; akin to Go kilthai = womb]
Israel "izzy" Cohen
izzy_cohen@...