--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> [UTF-8 encoded, like Mark's original message]
>
> Walde & Pokorny ignore laryngeals as a principle. If the Don's name
belongs here at all (<speculation> Tanais may be a "Cimmerian" name
with the Thracian analogue of Grimm's Law; in SE Poland we also have
Tanew < *ta:nu:, which might in turn be Gothic-influenced, as the
river runs close to a very early settlement area of the Goths
</speculation>), the short vowel might be the reflex of a vocalised
laryngeal (*da:-/*d@- in Brugmannian terms), but I think a more
convincing explanation is possible. The reduced vowel *U which occurs
in some Slavic river-names (*dUnEprU 'Dnieper', *dUnEstrU 'Dniester')
is the reflex of unstressed Iranian *a (also shortened *a:) in a
pretonic syllable. A similar substitution is visible in the
numeral '100', Slavic *sUtó < Iranian *satá- (the regular Slavic
reflex of the IE word would be **sInto or **sIntU) and in the verb
*xUt-je-/*xot-je-'want' (most likely from Iranian *xat-yá- < *snt-
jé-, cf. Polish chÄÄ 'willingness' < *xant-i- < *sont-i-). The
variation *U/*o in the verb is unmotivated phonologically; *don-/*dUn-
may be a similar case of an unstressed back vowel being replaced by
dialectal Slavic equivalents.
>
> The "*o/*u ablaut" can't be taken seriously. Bringing in an
isolated Latvian word that doesn't quite fit semantically is a shot
in the dark. In etymologically secure cases like nox/nuks u is
characteristically Greek and ALWAYS occurs next to a reconstructed
labialised velar stop or *w (cf. such celebrated items as hudo:r,
gune:, kuklos). The vowel quality must be due to the colouring effect
of the "dark" consonant (labialised stops lose their labial component
and have plain velar reflexes in such cases!) and definitely has
nothing to do with IE alternations. Professor Schmid should be aware
of that, as the problem has often been mentioned in the literature.
>
> Greek dan-, on the other hand, is easily relatable to da:n- via the
normal ablaut pattern {dex+n} : {dx+n}, though any analyst who wants
to connect Da:nuvius and the Danaoi should at least risk a prediction
specifying the forms in which the nil grade has a right to occur.
Also the second -a- in Danaoi remains difficult to explain even if we
admit *d(a)x-n-o- as a variant of *dax-n-(e)u- (like, say, Germanic
*xurna- < *kr-n-o- 'horn' vs. Latin cornu:) or equate the Danaoi with
Ramesses III's dnjn ("Denyen"/"Danuna", one of the Sea Peoples; this
immediately brings to mind the story of Danaus and Aegyptos). We
would probably need something like *dx-n-ax-(j-) as well -- which
means a constellation of hypothetical forms with very little tangible
attestation. These connections are extremely tempting, but we're on
slippery ground here. Suspecti sunt Danai et dona ferentes.
>
> Piotr
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Odegard
> To: cybalist@egroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 1:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Danaans [was Poseidon]
>
> Mark writes:
> The dictionary of Walde-Pokorney .. has only the root *dÄ- and
*dÄ"- without explaining either the quantity or the o-vocalism
of "Don" (or the quantity of its o-vocalism). But since there is an
initial dÄ-na for Sanskrit, isn't it possible that the root had a
final laryngeal originally? The Greek word δημÏÏ
('fat', 'fodder', 'nourishment for beasts') could possibly be
attached to "-dan ". Then, being analyzed further as *dÄ-m-, it
would remind of *dÄ-n-. Nevertheless, I think that the most
plausible explanation is given by W.P. Schmid. He interprets the
difference in quantity between dÄ-nu and Î"αναοι with
quantitative ablaut relations, *danos being the outcome of the zero
grade (Schwundstufe). He also brings the forms with -o- with those
with -u- together, dan/dun- as in Latvian danava, dunava /'pool,
puddle'/. The vowel gradation has then several parallels, e.g., nox -
νÏξ , also calix - κÏλιξ, Lithuanian nagas /'nail'/ - óνÏ
ξ, etc. It is clear, he writes, that the Î"αναοι must have had
their homeland in the region which had the zero grade form dan-, not
that of dÄ-nu.
Torsten writes:
A humble question *dx > *t'(glottalic) (> PGerm. t)?
Suppose PGerm. was a pidginized (verb inflection simplification)
trade language used first at the transfer point between the Northern
(Wistula) and Southern (Dniestr) traders by Southern river traders,
we expect a "t/d insecurity" to spread along all the Southern rivers
(if controlled by those Southern traders). So much for Grimm.
As that route for political reasons must be moved east (Duna/Dniepr)
we find a Baltic Finnic substrate at the "transfer point"
(Orsha/Vitebsk). Hence stress moved to first syllable.
Sorry for the looseness. I can't put it more precisely.
On the other hand, I think perhaps we need to see a trade language as
not being bound to particular area (which presupposes people living
there most of their lives, as in the famous dialect maps of the 19th
century) but as bound to a route.
Torsten