Re: Language - Area - Routes

--- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:

>
> Why Dniepr?
> Saxo says himself that some of his sources are old poems. As I
> understand Jon Galster he is saying that the Danes used to live

along

> (on?) the *d-n- rivers, until they had to leave (the "Dan and Danp"
> argument, BTW Danp would have been ON *danpr in the nominative),

and

> that Saxo didn't know that and that he tried to reinterpret the

poems

> in terms of then (and present) geographical postion of the Danes.
> This means of course that JG has to establish the presumed Danish

(*d-

> n- ish?) presence in the Ukraine by other means, and then show that
> Saxo can bereinterpreted to fit that presumed presence
> (assuming "reasonable misunderstanding" on Saxo's part). In this

case

> this might mean assuming that the sea in 5.7.1-5.7.6 was really the
> Black Sea.
>

1. But what about 2.1.2-2.1.7 ?
2. Saxo regularly mentuions variuos (small and big) islands in the
sea. Do you know any islands in the Black Sea?
3. Saxo's Ruscia/Rutenae situated somewhere east of Denmark (and one
had to make his way to Rutenae via some sea passing some islands). If
Denmark was in today's Ukraine, what location would you suggest for
Ruthenia?

> Why Slavs?
> The closest I ever came to saying that was when I assumed the
> Ruthenians were "some kind of Ukrainians", which you immediately
> protested against.

Please explain for God's sake: what do you mean by "some kind of
Ukrainians", considering the fact that today's Ukrainians (and their
ethnonym) hardly set earlier than XV c.?

> If you think they were Germanic, that's fine with
> me. But if they lived so close to the Baltic then, how and when did
> they move to their present position (if it's the same people)?

Whose position? Transcarpathian Ruthenians (West-
Ukrainians, 'rusyni')? It's just that unfamous bookish tradition to
designate them 'Ruthenians' AS IF they were direct descendants of Rut
(h)enae of medieval tradition (whatever the latter were). Well, like,
say, you called Ukrainians Scyths. Why such a tradition? As I've
already explained, because 1. 'Ruthenia' has been EVENTUALLY applied
to Russia (in today's sense) 2. When (today's) Ruthenians were asked
by Hungarian/German/Czech-speaking person who were they, they
answered 'rusyni' ('Russians') because (see relevant posting)...

> Jon Galster mentions two more *d-n- river names in support of his
> theory: Düna (supposedly the "exit route" for the Danes into the
> Baltic)

If I understand correctly, the name of the river you mean is (via
Slavic)< Baltic *Dauguva: 'lagre (river)'.

Sergei