Re: [tied] IS's "regular roots"

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 5794
Date: 2001-01-26

The "Slava" system, as revised and recently canvassed by Dolgopolsky, is indeed Gargantuan:
 
25 stops and affricates (3 rows of eight + glottal stop)
12 fricatives (2 rows of 5 + pharyngeal and glottal fricatives)
13 sonorants (5 nasals, 3 laterals, 2 rhotics, 3 semivowels)
7 vowels
 
---------------
 
Total: 57 phonemes, including 50 consonants
 
The reconstructed prosodic structure of content words can be represented thus: (CV.)CV(C).CV, where dots stand for syllable boundaries and optional material is parenthesised. Actually most roots are disyllabic, but the final vowel is left unspecified more often than not.
 
The phoneme inventory is twice the average size of PIE reconstructions and nearly three times as big as the standard Proto-Uralic, Proto-Altaic and Proto-Dravidian systems. Even typical Kartvelian and Afro-Asiatic systems are far less baroque (e.g. Georgian has 28 consonants and five vowels). Some North Caucasian languages could successfully compete with this version of Nostratic, but (1) North Caucasian languages are not included in Nostratic, and (2) those with extremely large consonant inventories usually have just two vowels (low : non-low).
 
The postulation of a parent system so much more complex than any of its daughters raises the suspicion that protosegments have been artificially multiplied in order to obtain a satisfactory number of matches. This suspicion is reinforced by the following facts:
 
(1) Many of the proposed correspondences have very few instantiations; this betrays their ad hoc character and the spurious character of such matches.
 
(2) The relative frequency of protosegments in reconstructions does not seem to correspond to their typological markedness -- e.g., the inventory contains a plethora of coronal fricatives and affricates (no fewer than twenty!), but plain *s is extremely rare.
 
(3) Dolgopolsky employs -- very liberally -- a large number of "uncertainty symbols": unspecified vowels, unspecified consonants, cover symbols for classes of segments, multiple possibilities ("X or Y", "X or similar", "X or nil"), etc.
 
And since uncertainty symbols have been mentioned ...
 
... many of the reconstructions look like this: "*n|n`u|üs'V or *n|n`u|üsyV 'woman; woman of the other moiety'", where the uncertainty symbol <|> and the word "or" are used to compress eight different possibilities (not to mention the run-of-the-mill unspecified final vowel) into one "disjunctive" reconstruction; even so, a good deal of special handling is required to account for unexpected daughter reflexes.
 
There are some really mind-blowing "correspondences", e.g. where a Nostratic "egg" is reconstructed as <glottal stop> + <a|o "or similar" _or_ u> + <uvular or pharyngeal fricative> + <i> on the basis of the IE "egg" word (cited as *ou(y)o-), compared with Old Japanese u 'egg' (representing the entire Altaic phylum!), and with a solitary Syro-Lebanese Arabic word for 'white of egg' (?a:h_), out of which an Afroasiatic protoword for "egg" is conjured up!
 
To be sure, Dolgopolsky himself marks the most bizarre of such reconstructions as "questionable" (many others deserve the same qualification but don't get it). However, if they are bizarre and he realises it, why the heck does he publish them?
 
Piotr
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Glen Gordon
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 9:28 AM
Subject: [tied] IS's "regular roots" and the benefits of back-up
 
Glen to Miguel:
 
<snipped exchange of irrelevant verbal abuse between my honourable friends MCV and GG>

The Nostratic phonology as it now stands is a farce and Illich-S. has hardly provided many, if any, credible disyllabic roots for Nostratic. It's not necessarily impossible for polysyllabic roots to have existed in Nostratic but the language is still unlikely to have been Japanese-like in nature. Don't you agree?