Re: [tied] Re: Phonetic iconicity

You'll do it the way you like. But my inclusion of Plato was entirely in earnest. "Cratylus" is deeper than any other analysis of language that can be found in ancient literature, and is also great fun to read. Plato's genius manifests itself in the fact that he doesn't take sides and doesn't let either party to win (though in theory he should have sympathised with Cratylus's approach, which seems to be more in accord with Plato's own doctrine). Socrates, who's called upon to arbitrate, develops (very lightly -- he's relaxed and in top form) a view of language that combines conventionality with naturalness. Meanwhile, he satirises the pretences of all dogmatic philosophising on language. Much of the dialogue is taken up with Socrates' elaborate mock-etymologies as he parodies the "linguists" of his time and plays cat and mouse with both adversaries, making them look rather silly. Here's a teaser for linguists.

HERMOGENES: Still there remains Athene, whom you, Socrates, as an Athenian, will surely not forget; there are also Hephaestus and Ares.

SOCRATES: I am not likely to forget them.

HERMOGENES: No, indeed.

SOCRATES: There is no difficulty in explaining the other appellation of Athene.

HERMOGENES: What other appellation?

SOCRATES: We call her Pallas.

HERMOGENES: To be sure.

SOCRATES: And we cannot be wrong in supposing that this is derived from armed dances. For the elevation of oneself or anything else above the earth, or by the use of the hands, we call shaking (pallein), or dancing.

HERMOGENES: That is quite true.

SOCRATES: Then that is the explanation of the name Pallas?

HERMOGENES: Yes; but what do you say of the other name?

SOCRATES: Athene?

HERMOGENES: Yes.

SOCRATES: That is a graver matter, and there, my friend, the modern interpreters of Homer may, I think, assist in explaining the view of the ancients. For most of these in their explanations of the poet, assert that he meant by Athene 'mind' (nous) and 'intelligence' (dianoia), and the maker of names appears to have had a singular notion about her; and indeed calls her by a still higher title, 'divine intelligence' (theou noesis), as though he would say: This is she who has the mind of God (Theonoa); – using alpha as a dialectical variety for eta, and taking away iota and sigma. Perhaps, however, the name Theonoe may mean 'she who knows divine things' (Theia noousa) better than others. Nor shall we be far wrong in supposing that the author of it wished to identify this Goddess with moral intelligence (en ethei noesin), and therefore gave her the name ethonoe; which, however, either he or his successors have altered into what they thought a nicer form, and called her Athene.

HERMOGENES: But what do you say of Hephaestus?

SOCRATES: Speak you of the princely lord of light (Phaeos istora)?

HERMOGENES: Surely.

SOCRATES: Ephaistos is Phaistos, and has added the eta by attraction; that is obvious to anybody.

HERMOGENES: That is very probable, until some more probable notion gets into your head.

SOCRATES: To prevent that, you had better ask what is the derivation of Ares.

HERMOGENES: What is Ares?

----- Original Message -----
From: Håkan Lindgren

To: Cybalist

Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 9:00 AM

Subject: [tied] Re: Phonetic iconicity

Thanks a lot, Piotr! I'll check these out. Plato's always readable, but I'll start with the modern stuff. Hakan _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Piotr wrote - Here's some introductory reading for people interested in "sound symbolism". Of course the debate really began with Plato's "Cratylus", which can still be regarded as a stimulating contribution (and is also highly readable). The debate is between Hermogenes, who represents the opinion that the relation between linguistic form and meaning is purely symbolic (arbitrary, "conventional"), and Cratylus, whose view is that language is iconic (non-arbitrary, "natural").