Re: [tied] People of the Rivers, the saga continues

Has LAUTHN some relation with LATINUS ?

----- Original Message -----
From: Glen Gordon <glengordon01@...>
To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 6:15 AM
Subject: [tied] People of the Rivers, the saga continues


>
> Piotr:
> >It puzzles me too. PIE *leudH- (or *h1leudH- if Greek eleutheros and
>Latin
> >li:ber are related) contains *dH as a root element -- cf. >Proto-Germanic
> >*liudo: < *leudHa: (OE le:od, German Leute).
>
> Sergei:
> >I am not into your way of reasoning, so I wonder what developement
> >would you propose for *lawos-dxnéus>.?.>(Lith.) lia'udis (-i-stem,
> >f.) 'folk', Common Slavic *ljudI etc.?
>
> Boy oh boy, it's Critics' Night at the cybalist :) First of all, I should
> have said IndoTyrrhenian *lewe-t:exan (not *lawe-) and IE *lewos-dxnéus.
Mea
> culpa, I have to revise my website some more.
>
> Second, I should have gone into more detail. When I mentioned an IE phrase
> *lewos-dxnéus, I was just illustrating one possible "phrasal" reflex of
> "People of the Rivers" as opposed to the fossilized word *leudhos whose
> original components had been totally forgotten at this stage by
IE-speakers.
> This dual-path idea is attested elsewhere as with English "goodbye" (<
"God
> be wi' ye") surviving as a totally corrupted artifact alongside its
phrasal
> twin, "May God be with you".
>
> So, in the same vein, I envision two pathes of the one IndoTyrrhenian
phrase
> *lewe-t:exan. One is the ethnonymic concept or imagery itself. We might
> replace the words in IE *lewos-dxnéus with any other synonyms we want but
> the meaning of this phrase itself should have survived into IE alongside
the
> corrupted *leudhos. The latter was formed along a second path, also
> producing the regularly formed cognate Etruscan /lautn/ "family". Thus,
the
> ancient phrase is squished into a single word for convenience and
effortless
> speech. No big whoop.
>
> Now to explain the IE phonetics which are somewhat incredible, I know. The
> ethnonym would have survived as a phrase up to Late MidIE (c.5500 and
later)
> when the final vowels were dropped, producing *l(e)u-t:éxr (note *-n >
*-r).
> At this point, the phrase was understood as a single word *l(e)ut:éxr with
> the regular stress accent on the second-to-last syllable.
>
> Since the word was used for a people, the word was of animate gender but
> this conflicted with the apparent inanimate ending *-r, which was the
ending
> originally applied to the "river" word of the phrase. As is typical of the
> Early Late IE period, many words were revised with new grammatical tricks.
> So for aesthetics' sake the inanimate-looking, animate ethnonym
*l(e)ut:éxr
> was given a more "animated" look by dropping the heteroclitic termination,
> adding a thematic vowel and giving it an initial accent, producing
> *léut:x-o-s (later *leudxos).
>
> Finally, quite irregularly I admit, as if my explanation isn't undesirably
> irregular enough :), the term became *leudhos at a point when the original
> meaning of the word was entirely lost and the possibility of corruption
with
> homophonic words was greatest. The American Heritage site defines a verb
> *leudh- as "to mount, to grow" and I wonder whether this is truely the
root
> of *leudhos or whether this verb is the reason behind the corruption. At
any
> rate, the Germanic version *leudhax and the Lithuanian i-stem must both
> derive from *leudhos.
>
> That's my latest theory anyway. I'm open to other ideas and death threats.
>
> As for the phonetics on the Etruscan side, everything is gloriously
regular
> according to my current conclusions on Etruscan reflexes. IndoTyrrhenian
> *lewe-t:exan should become ProtoTyrrhenian *lewetten with an automatic
> initial accent and loss of all mediofinal laryngeals. From here, the
> Etruscan reflex of *e varies as either /e/ or /a/ (a dialectal variation
> proven by /clen/ vs. /clan/ "son" which possibly derives from Tyr
> *k:al-ene). IndoTyr *t: regularly becomes Etruscan inaspirate /t/ while
> lenis stops *t and *d merge as aspirate /tH/. So we arrive at Etruscan
> /lautn/ (probably for *lautan) in regular fashion.
>
> Now semantics. I think most of you realise the association between
"family"
> and "tribe" (ie: "extended family") and so I won't bore you with the
> Etruscan definition. The meaning given for the IE reflex is "tribe" and
the
> jump from an ethnonym to the meaning of "tribe" (as in "my tribe" or
"tribes
> like us" as opposed to "foreign tribe") is an insignificant step to
> overcome.
>
> Finally, in much the same way as "Anishinaabe" denotes not only the
Ojibway
> people but all other peoples speaking Algonquian languages (known as
> Anishinaabemowin), I feel that the IndoTyrrhenian speaking population as a
> whole, even thousands of years after their fracture into seperate
languages,
> tribes, cultures and mythologies, continued to use the phrase "People of
the
> Rivers" as well as the dialectal corrupted versions (lautn/*leudhos) to
> designate each other based on their common linguistic heritage that they
> themselves were fully aware of.
>
> - gLeN
>
>
>
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