Re: [tied] *Pexwr-G^ene:s

I believe the association of oaks with thunderstorms was
folk-etymological. I don't see any linguistic evidence for
it outside Baltic (with *perku:nas 'thunderer' for expected
*per-u:n-a-s, cf. Slavic *perunU 'thunderbolt') and
Scandinavian (an areal connection is very likely here,
especially as Baltic Perkunas and Slavic Perun are the
functional counterparts of Thor, son of Odin by Fjörgyn).
PIE *perkW-o-s (or *perkW-u-s?) 'oaktree' is a concrete noun
that needn't be derived from a verb root. An additional
complication is that the oak word in Baltic is *ang^-o:l/n-
(Lith. a,z^uolas, Prussian ansonis) and *perkW- is not
directly attested there with that meaning.

It is quite possible that the rock = thunder association is
due to semantic contamination as well. The Slavic
'thunderbolt' word is quite transparently related to
*per(h2)- 'strike' and perhaps indirectly to *porh2- 'split,
penetrate, push on' (Hittite parh-, Slavic *por(-je)-ti,
Gothic faran, etc.). The PIE 'rock' word was clearly
*perwen-/*perun-o- (no labiovelars, no laryngeals). The
superficial similarity of *perwen-, *perh2-(wen-) and
*perkWo- was an invitation to folk etymologists. Note, BTW,
that there is an old association between oaktrees and the
thunderbolt-throwing Sky God (via oakwood javelin shafts?):
the esculent oak was sacred to Jupiter, for example. Glen's
eforts to add 'fire' to this melee of roots are in the best
tradition of IE mythmaking.

The 'fire' root had a rather complex heteroclitic paradigm
with such allomorphs as *pah2wr, *pah2wen- *ph2uo:r,
*ph2u(:)r-, *ph2un-o-. They don't seem to be confusible with
the roots listed above under normal conditions (except via
some sort of izzical metathesis), though an alliterative
basis for folk-etymologising, strengthened by semantic
connectibility, no doubt exists -- otherwise the connection
would not have occurred to Glen.

The *g^enh1es- element in Glen's reconstruction is
unwarranted since, in the first place, there is no PIE
*perkW(o)nos meaning 'storm' (at best we have a dialectal
corruption of *perh2-wen- or some such derivative, used as
the name of a deity associated with both storms and oaks),
and secondly the confusion of *g^ and *kW even in wordplay
strains credibility beyond reasonable limits.

Piotr

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...>
To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] *Pexwr-G^ene:s


>
> Chris G:
> >I am still a bit shaky on what you are saying about
*Pexwr-G^ene:s'
> >connection to *PerkWonos - can you clarify/restate it a
bit?
> >
> >Are you saying that the names *Pexwr-G^ene:s and
*PerkWonos are
> >linguistically related, or simply that they are alternate
names for >the
> >same god? Or am I simply confused.
>
> I'm not sure exactly. :) The more I revisit this idea, the
more I discover
> new aspects, none of which give me ultimate illumination
on the matter but
> damned if they aren't interesting. It certainly seems like
one name is a
> mutation of the other but I'm not sure what's what yet.
The epithet "Fire
> Born" must signify something in IE myth because it
obviously appears to
> reoccur over and over as we've seen. I'm not sure how it
might have
> described the storm deity *PerkWnos however.
>
> Obviously, lightning is not "born of fire", nor is a
storm, unless perhaps
> this truely describes the roar of thunder that follows a
flash of lightning.
> (Of course, if *PerkWnos is simply "storm", then he is
both "lightning fire"
> AND "thunder", so... does "Fire Born" imply an
"autogenesis"?? Argh, no
> comprendo, seor!)
>
> Yet, on the other hand, I don't understand why there is a
connection between
> oak trees, lightning and this storm deity which underlies
the accepted name
> *PerkWnos. It would almost seem that the connection is on
an abstract level,
> caused by a linguistic pun of an earlier *Pexwr-G^ene:s,
corrupted by other
> similar words like "to strike" and *perkWos "oak" giving
the deity
> additional aspects and purposes that had never existed
before in the
> original EuroAnatolian protomyth with the "Baal"-ish
counterpart.
>
> Yet, on a third hand (lended to me by a friend :P), how
does "Fire Born"
> relate exactly to IE myth? Am I correct? Is it simply his
thunderous roar
> being "born" from lightning? Does it perhaps have
something to do with the
> story of Odin and his Christly self-sacrifice on the tree?
Somehow born from
> fire? Born from ashes? Born from a tree's ashes?? Is a
tree struck by
> lightning considered a holy event where *PerkWnos is
metaphorically "nailed"
> to the tree, only to rise to the sky (via the smoke of the
blazing tree) and
> become reborn?? I don't know. I'm still exploring, trying
to arrive at the
> most sensible theory.
>
> Summary: I think the two names are both from an IE level
and
> related by religious wordplay.
>
> I'll get to the other messages soon. I have to sleep now
and save my
> strength to fight the new year. Nighty night and may
everyone have an
> ordered lifespan under the sun of the 3rd millenium... We
probably won't
> live to the next millenium, so we better make this one
good... That reminds
> me, I must invest in bioengineering companies... [wink
wink] :)
>
> - gLeN