Re: [tied] Re: Dorsals revised

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 5024
Date: 2000-12-11

*h2 = [X] accounts for its [a]-colouring properties. Velar fricatives typically cause other vowel changes -- most often the retraction of front vowels, or "backing" diphthongisation, as in Old English "breaking". Uvulars are pronounced with the tongue body almost flat and they commonly condition vowel lowering; in my opinion they can legitimately be classified as [low] dorsals. This is in oposition to Chomsky and Halle's classic teaching. They define uvulars as [-high, -low], reserving the specification [-high, +low] for pharyngeals. I don't think the two classes contrast in such terms; the main difference is that uvulars are dorsal while pharyngeals involve a tongue-root articulation.
 
It's conceivable that PIE had a large number of fricatives; the question is only if there is sufficient ground for their reconstruction.
 
Of course you're free to experiment with any number of Pre-PIE segments. But you'd better replace *q^ with something else. A palatalised uvular would require an impossible articulatory manoeuvre (pace some descriptions of Ubykh dorsals).
 
Piotr
 
P.S. I've just found that a three-way system involving *K, *Q, *KW is tentatively suggested by Adams in his EIEC article on PIE. He remarks en passant that it would make a more plausible alternative to *K^, *K, *KW. The idea may not be new, but our debate has certainly yielded some rather cogent arguments in support of such a system.
 
P.
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
To: cybalist@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Dorsals revised

I miss some additional argumentation as to why *h2 would necessarily have to be uvular ([+low]).  Isn't it conceivable that it was velar [x], or even, god help us, that both [x] and [X] existed (*h2a and *h2b ?).

I also reserve the right to have pre-PIE **q^ (> *k^) and **qw (> *kw), for reasons of symmetry and because of two cute self-discovered Nostratic etymologies which I'm reluctant to let go of (PIE *g^hesr- "hand", PSem *3as'r- "10", PKartv. *qe(l)- (Svan pl. qäl-är-) "hand, arm"; and PIE *g^en(d)h1u- "chin, jaw, cheek", PKartv. *Ga(:)c'.w- "cheek", *Ga(n)c^.- "jaw"), both with (palato-)velars in PIE for the expected uvular.