Re: [tied] Wine

From: João Simões Lopes Filho
Message: 4715
Date: 2000-11-14

This explanation of Germanic f : IE kw as from IE pw it's very interesting.
A dissimilation pw>kw...
In many cases IE labial+w the labial "absorbs" the w, cf. *Bhwi- > Lat fio
*-bhwos > -Latin -bus (superbus, probus)
*pwiyos > pius.

About the Greek alternance p-/pt-, unless in some case I think that it can
be explained as < *tp-
For example: ptelea "elm" cf. Slavic topoli < *tpel- and *topol- (maybe
Latin populus < *topolos or *po-tpolos
polemos "war" / ptolem- "warrior" can be the same case, but I don't know

Joao SL
----- Original Message -----
From: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv@...>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Wine

> On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 07:35:50 GMT, "Glen Gordon"
> <glengordon01@...> wrote:
> There's a difference between "how rare is this" and "there can't be
> any *pw sound. [..snip ignorance..] Any examples of this in a HUMAN
> language?"
> The fact is that we find in Germanic a substantial number of cases
> where PIE *kw is reflected as *f/*b. For instance: "four", "liver",
> "wolf", "-lve". BTW, does anyone know where I might find an
> exhaustive list of these? I have never seen a good explanation of
> this, except vague phrases along the line of "*kw > *p is a natural
> development" (it is, but that does not explain why _some_ words do
> this in Germanic and others don't).
> On the other hand, if we once had *pw, which turned *kw elsewhere
> (given the markedness of *pw, a natural thing to occur), but was
> retained as *p in Germanic, that would make a good explanation. In
> some cases, this can be made plausible by related forms which also
> show *p in other IE lgs. (e.g. Lat. lupus "wolf" ~ vulpes "fox" for
> *wlpw-), in other cases the only evidence I have at the moment are
> comparisons with extra-IE forms, such as *pwetwor- ~ PAA *p.wat.-
> "four" or *l^a:pwnt- "liver" ~ Uralic *lapde- "spleen".
> When I first started thinking about the possibility that, besides *k,
> *k^, *kw (etc.) [and possibly *x^, *x, *xw], the other pPIE consonants
> may also have had palatalized and labialized variants, I was not
> thinking of these Germanic cases of *p ~ *kw alternation, nor of the
> famous problem of Armenian plural -k`. What I had in mind was the PIE
> verbal system, where we find *m ~ *w alternations in the 1st person,
> and *t ~ *s alternations in the second. I was also thinking of the
> irregular o-grade presents as in Latin molere "to grind", where a root
> *mwel- would explain Latin -o- as well as Greek zero-grade mule:,
> besides delabialized e.g. Slavic mel-jo~. Also the *t ~ *s
> alternation in the perfect active participle and in some other words
> (*h2aus- ~ *h2aut- "dawn", etc.), and maybe the curious Greek *pt-
> words besides *p- elsewhere (Greek *pj -> pt in the j-stems). But
> there are more phenomena that suddenly begin to look understandable if
> we assume palatalized and labialized variants of the consonants: the
> *n/*i stems like *poti-/*potn- (< *potn^-), or the verb *nem- ~ *yem-,
> some *l/*i alternations such as in the "liver" word (< *l^a:pwnt-),
> and maybe even the Caland system (*n -> -r ~ -n-; *nw > -u ~ -m-; *n^
> > -i ~ -n-).
> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> mcv@...