Re: [tied] Re: The Birds - etymology found

From: João Simões Lopes Filho
Message: 4482
Date: 2000-10-22

Other examples of "hellenisms" (ch and y) in Latin  were machina (< Doric ma:khana: = me:khane:) instead macina or macana and sylva, instead silva.
A similar process occurs in Modern Portuguese of Brazil, where the influence of English make people put "k", "w" and "y" in children's names.
----- Original Message -----
From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: The Birds - etymology found

Yes, the substitution of borrowed [f] by [p] is found in the Baltic languages as well, for exactly the same reason as in Slavic (no native [f]).
The Latin substitution is quite natural, given that the Classical Greek pronunciation was [pH]. Another nice example is purpura < porphura. As you correctly note, this is especialy true of archaic Latin, in which Philemo:n was nativised as Pilemo. Later, educated Romans tried to imitate the aspiration, sometimes even overdoing it a little (hence "refained" pseudo-Greek pulcher which ousted the historically expected form pulcer/polcer). From the first century onwards we find examples of "ph" --> "f" (Filippus, etc.) in Latin inscriptions. This new substitution pattern is due to the Greek change [pH] > [f].
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: The Birds - etymology found

This f> p also occurs in Lithuanian, right? cf. Steponas
It's curious that archaic Latin loans from Greek also had f>p cf. Phoinix > *Poinikos> Pu:nicus