Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:
> No, at the time in question there were no Slavs in those parts yet. Pliny's
> Venedi, Tacitus' Veneti, Ptolemy's Ouenedai /wenedai/, located on a norhern sea at
> a place called the Venetic Gulf (Ouenedikon kolpon = Gulf of Gdansk?) must have
> been the original Veneti. But for Jordanes, in the 6th century, the terms Venethae
> and Sclaveni are practically synonymous, and for mediaeval German authors
> Winidi/Wenden are always Slavs.
>
Tacitus used the spelling "Venedi". I think this is a good
place to ask whether the difference between the "d" and "t
/th" (when expressed in Latin or Greek) was of any
significance.
If "Venethae" lived between the middle Dniester and Dnieper
rivers, Jordanes couldn't assume that they were related to
Veneti controlling the Amber Route at the "Venedian Gulf".
So, where did his "Venethae" term originate?
As for "Venedi", Tacitus did not place those people directly
at the Baltic Sea, or even at the Vistula river. He did not
mention that they had any relations with Goths or Aesti
people living at the Baltic coast. The Venedians seemed to
be localized somewhere east of Vistula, and they had rather
extensive contacts with Sarmatians. There was also a
suggestion that they occupied the area between the Bastarns
(Dniester?) and the Fennians (Finns?). This would correspond
to the territory of Slavs (Venethae), when Goths met them in
3rd/4th cent. AD (according to Jordanes). The information
given by Pliny the Elder brings no further details but it's
impotrant to say that he did not talk about the Baltic Sea
when mentioning Venedi (together with Sarmatians and
Scirris). Thus, the only one who placed Venedians at the
Baltic Sea was Ptolomy. He was also the only one who used
the term "Venedian gulf" and "Venedian mountains". Was it
because he had much better source of information?
> And did you know that the Finnish word for
> 'Russian' is Venäläinen (from Venäjä < *Venätä)?
>
I didn't. Does it suggest that the "Venethae" term was not
related to Veneti people?
> The Venetic communication routes between the Baltic and the
> Adriatic must have been severed as a result of Celtic and then
> Germanic expansions in Central Europe. I suppose they survived
> the longest (until ca. AD 100) east of the lower Vistula and on
> the Gulf of Venice before being absorbed by the Goths and the
> Romans, respectively.
>
Yes, Jordanes did not mention any Venedians (Venedi/Veneti),
when he described the arrival of Goths to northern Poland
(c. 100 AD). According to him, Goths first beat the Ulmerugi
(Rugii?) and then subdued their neighbors Vandali (both
Germanic tribes). However, the Goths (and especially the
Gepids, who came a little bit later) seemed to have no
problems with continuation of the amber trade. So maybe the
presence of hypothetical Venetians at the Vistula river was
not that important for the functioning of the Amber Route. I
think it was only the Moravian Route that was abandoned
since the Marcomannian wars started. However, the
alternative route (through Ukraine) was activated. BTW, this
brings a hypothetical explanation of the Venedian/Venethian
migration from northern Poland to Ukraine ;-) I wonder
whether you have any comments on this.
> The Venetic question was discussed in great
> detail on this list some time ago.
>
Thanks. I've checked it.
> I've got some book references, but I'll try to find something for
> you in my quickly growing collection of archaeological URLs. The
> Jastorf culture folk cremated their dead, and the urns were
> placed in a small pit or walled about with stones to make a
> chamber that was filled with the ashes of the funeral pyre. Small
> bronze and iron items like fibulae, belt buckles, razors,
> earrings, pincers and safety pins are found as burial gifts. In
> the Poieneshti-Lukashevka culture (from the late 3rd century BC
> to ca. AD 50 in Moldova) the urn is typically covered with an
> upturned bowl, as in some earlier graves in Mazovia (Poland); the
> culture is essentially of the Jastorf type combined with
> Przeworsk (Lugian), La Tene (Celtic) and Dacian traits.
>
Thanks again,
Michal