Glenn McDavid wrote:
> Yes, with the probable exception of the Neo-Hittite kingdoms of
> Cilicia and Northern Syria. Some of these survived until c. 800 BC,
> well after iron weapons became prevalent, but I don't think you had
> them in mind.
Yes, you are right.
> During the chaotic centuries that followed the trade routes in the
> area may well have been disrupted, encouraging the use of iron. So
> the Sea Peoples, etc. rather than benefiting from the wider use of
> iron, may have caused it.
OK, but I still want to find out who used it first (on mass scale).
Neo-Hittites?, Philistines (after they settled in Palestine)?
> The last major battle between the Hittites and the Egyptians was Kadesh,
> c. 1275 BC. The Egyptian accounts are largely bragging about the
> supposed accomplishments of Ramesses II on the battlefield. They give
> some interesting information about the Hittite Army, but I don't recall
> anything about the metals used in the weapons.
> Later in the century the Hittites under Tudkhaliyas IV, their last strong
> emperor, went to war against the Assyrian Empire of Tukulti-
> Ninurta I. They came off rather the worse in this campaign, so they
> certainly did not have any decisive superiority in weaponry.
Thanks.
> Drews did not go into detail about this in _The End of the Bronze Age_.
> His intent in that chapter was to show (convincingly, to my mind) that
> iron weapons could not have been responsible for the disasters of
> c. 1200 BC. The numbers I gave above were taken by Drews from Jane
> Waldbaum, _From Bronze to Iron: The Transition from the Bronze Age
> to the Iron Age in the Eastern Mediterranean_, Studies in
> Mediterranean Archaeology, vol. 54 (Goteborg, 1978), which was
> originally a 1968 Harvard Ph.D. dissertation. I suspect you can find
> a lot more numbers and some regional breakdowns there. I have not
> seen it myself.
I'm afraid I may have troubles with finding this paper. Anyway, all this is in
agreement with critical comments I got from Carole Gillis. She is an Associate.
Professor at Dept. of Classical Archeology and Ancient History, Lund
University, Sweden. She gave me no clear answer to my original question, but
her comments seem to suuport the Drews view on the role of Dorians and Sea
Peoples in the fall of Mycenaen and Hittite civilisations. Here are some
citations from her letters:
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"Do you mean something about the 'Dorian invasion'? To my knowledge that theory
went out about 25 years ago. No Dorians to my knowledge ever invaded anywhere,
and I have no knowledge of their supposedly having iron swords. It is currently
believed that simple shepherd-like peoples filtered down through the ruins of
the BA
bringing their Doric Greek language with them. They influenced the areas in
southern Greece - Sparta, etc - and crete. But invasion with iron swords??"
"The Dorians were simple shepherds in the mountains. And which ancient Greeks?
which military invasion? Which archaeological evidence points to the Dorians as
the
destroyers of the Mycenaean civilization? These theories are as ancient as your
Greeks. The common theory now among archaeologists and historians is the Sea
Peoples theory. All older ideas of earthquakes, civil war, famine, Dorians,
etc. are a thing of the past."
"The great mystery about the Sea Peoples is caused by the very fact that they
left
nothing after them - no artiefacts, no architectural remains, no change
anywhere in burial customs, no new pottery, nothing!! (and this includes 'iron
swords' and 'sleek warships'). If you want a factually correct but older book,
try 'The Sea Peoples' by Alexandra Nibbi, or some of the books by Robert
Drews."
"Starting from the beginning, ...At some point people began to realize that
there was a wave of destructions not only in Greece (which had been explained
by e.g. Mylonas as civil war in Mycenae, the the Dorians, by natural
catastrophe, due to invasions of unknown folk following a famine (Shys
Carpenter), and others. Once people started to look at other areas, they
realized that the Hittites, the coast of Asia Minor including all the rich port
cities like Ugarit, the s. coast of Turkey, the entire Aegean area, etc. was
destroyed at roughly the same time. It appeared that the entire e. med. area
was affected (Tiryns refortifies as does Mycenae after about 1250, in the Lin.
b tablets from Pylos there is talk of sending extra manpower to the coasts).
Can it be only coincidence?? No, said the united scholarly world. Who, then??
Hmmm. Thus was born the idea of the mystical Sea Peoples. The evidence for them
is from the Medinet habu relief in Egypt (R.III) the Harris papyrus, also
Egypt, other fragments of papyrus, and the indications that the beaten,
defeated human remains after the definitive downfall in Egypt c. 1192 or 1182
or so (R.III, but it is also known that R II's son merneptah fought battles
against these sea peoples, repelling but not defeating them) limped or sailed
to the nearest coast, present-day Gaza, and settled down. From some of the
pottery, a degenerate Mycenaean, it is concluded that there were also Myc.
mercenaries in the pay of the Sea P. As to iron, this is someting I have never
heard of (which doesn't mean of course that it isn't so). Robert Drews wrote a
book a few years ago call something like (can't find my copy) the end of the
Mycenaeans, where he puts the blame on the Libyans, who had advanced weaponry
and better fighting armies. There is also a third book, between Nibbi's and
Drews by Anacy Saundars called 'The Sea Peoples' or something similar.
Regarding chronology, the common date for the wave of destructions is c. 1200,
when the so-called Dorians were to have invaded. The next 50 or 100 years or so
is a degenerate form of the br. a. societies. At around 1050, iron begins
gradually to come into use, although bronze was still the major metal (alloy).
A new pottery, the proto-geometric style, came into being. writing, monumental
architecture, large
towns, intern. trade, representational art, etc, etc, disappeared. simple
farming communities. Not til the so-called geom. period, 900-700, do we have a
fairly common use of iron for utility, but still bronze, gold, silver, etc. for
luxury or statu, iron for warrior elite weapons, bronze/gold for their drinking
vessels. Thus, even if there were Dorians who invaded, they wouldn't have had
iron."
------------------------------------------------
I also found these two websites that discuss the problem of the Dark Ages in
the Aegean region. Maybe you will find them interesting (I especially like the
first one).
http://devlab.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/28.html
http://homer.reed.edu/GkHist/DorianInvasionLect.html
Regards,
Michal